Uncle Phil
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Why, so it would sound like an ST1300?
I don't get it...
- Thread starter ST1100Y
- Start date
I'm a bit more old school and an 80's kid... IMO, this was slicker, edgier, and cooler, especially 3 and a half decades ago...
I gotta say the hubless/axless wheel is some pretty cool tech. It's not the first bike with a hubless rear wheel but to my eye it's one of the slickestl
A review: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/0...the-verge-ts-pro-electric-motorbike/#comments
No doubt it's pricey and that is a hurdle. But it's not like they could sell it for $15K. They can't sell it as a loss leader product and make it up in volume. The tech will get cheaper to some degree. Horses were once cheaper to own and maintain that the first horseless carriages. Oh wait...
I'll just wait until this new wave of prosperity rolls in. Then I'll get an Ultra in green and one in yellow. There will be cheaper models. I doubt I'll ever own one but that's purely a matter of cost. The Ultra fully kitted is MSRP $49000. That'd cost me six months allowance!
I'd seriously consider taking a test ride — in a heartbeat.
valid point, but price wasn't mentioned as a factor in the OP.
From a review in Autoevolution:
Take away the hubless rear wheel and that cool factor and what do you have?
Chris
I realize I'm like an old dinosaur and a dying breed but why not a cheap no frills full bodywork sport tourer with a solid 90 too 100bhp Build it with no electronic bs that should make the bike come in under 15K dollars. I'm 71 now and I can't hold my breath much longer. Come on Honda. Hale to the Chief
It's a ST1100I realize I'm like an old dinosaur and a dying breed but why not a cheap no frills full bodywork sport tourer with a solid 90 too 100bhp Build it with no electronic bs that should make the bike come in under 15K dollars. I'm 71 now and I can't hold my breath much longer. Come on Honda. Hale to the Chief
As a refresher...
...even disregarding the OP's lack of mentioning the insane price.
So here's a question to ponder on your equivalent thinking spot as Pooh Bear would do...
The technology was developed in 1989. It's 2026 now. That's 37 years ago. If this was superior technology as it must be....it does look cool after all...why don't all vehicles use it? Why are we still using an axle like Fred did?
Could it be that it wasn't ready for prime-time in 1989...and it still isn't in 2026?
Chris
Hmm...he didn't mention price. He should have.... why such an otherworldly, impractical, unsuitable design...
no payload abilities...
not suited for passengers...
obviously not suited for even the slightest rainfall...
individual taste and slaps vary, but I find it revolting...
If they really want "the big change", why don't they build something useful and make it look at least a little more appealing...
It's still a useless expensive toy...
...even disregarding the OP's lack of mentioning the insane price.So here's a question to ponder on your equivalent thinking spot as Pooh Bear would do...
The technology was developed in 1989. It's 2026 now. That's 37 years ago. If this was superior technology as it must be....it does look cool after all...why don't all vehicles use it? Why are we still using an axle like Fred did?
Could it be that it wasn't ready for prime-time in 1989...and it still isn't in 2026?
Chris
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ST Gui
240Robert
Like so many other motorcycles:
no payload abilities...
not suited for passengers...
obviously not suited for even the slightest rainfall...
All useless impractical unsuitable designs. And most 'importantly' and definitely pejoratively — toys.
I saw an actual bike at AIMExpo yesterday as part of an exhibitor display. Again, I'm not a fan of electric bikes in general, but the Verge aesthetic was pretty cool in the flesh. Personally, I think their range claim is on the optimistic side, but if it's reasonably accurate, the bike becomes a lot more practical relative to it's peers. It's still a tad heavy IMHO, but the torque spec is bound to put a smile on any experienced riders face.
Aren't almost all motorcycles that aren't ridden for utilitarian/commute/competition reasons effectively toys, especially here in the USA?
One thing folks don’t think about is the look cool when they are new and running, but what about when you have to service them?
How many of you folks, or dealers , have the tools to change a tire on a hub less bike?
How many of you folks, or dealers , have the tools to change a tire on a hub less bike?
I’m still too old to dive in to the electric stuff.
When I was traveling to Arizona from California, I saw at least 5 Tesla vehicles being towed because the charging stations along I-5 were closed due to construction.
If I run out of gas, you can always bring me a gas can etc.
The guys off Revzilla just did a video trip, one on a Honda Grom, the other on an electric bike, they both had $20 dollars to go on their trip.
The Honda did great, the electric one had to search everywhere to find compatible chargers, and when they did, they had to sleep in the grass roadside for several hours each time, while they charged.
When I was traveling to Arizona from California, I saw at least 5 Tesla vehicles being towed because the charging stations along I-5 were closed due to construction.
If I run out of gas, you can always bring me a gas can etc.
The guys off Revzilla just did a video trip, one on a Honda Grom, the other on an electric bike, they both had $20 dollars to go on their trip.
The Honda did great, the electric one had to search everywhere to find compatible chargers, and when they did, they had to sleep in the grass roadside for several hours each time, while they charged.
Supposedly, unsprung mass is reduced, but oersonally I don't see how vs. a perfornance suspension setup. With no spokes/hub, rotational inertia/mass will be reduced. Cost and maintenance difficulty are most likely the main factors that prevent more mainstream adoption.As a refresher...
Hmm...he didn't mention price. He should have.
It's still a useless expensive toy...
So here's a question to ponder on your equivalent thinking spot as Pooh Bear would do...
The technology was developed in 1989. It's 2026 now. That's 37 years ago. If this was superior technology as it must be....it does look cool after all...why don't all vehicles use it? Why are we still using an axle like Fred did?
Could it be that it wasn't ready for prime-time in 1989...and it still isn't in 2026?
Chris
The average good mechanic cannot change carbon wheels easily without damage let alone a hubless wheel.
From that review on Autoevolution, they said unsprung mass was actually higher.
They also mentioned the suspension was in my words, "interesting". Hitting bumps while under acceleration was like riding a hardtail, while if not under acceleration, the suspension absorbed the bump smoothly. Front rake is very steep and with all the mass over the rear wheel, it had a tendency to go straight really well. If I remember the reviewer's words, it wanted to go straight in corners as well. Maybe I'm misremembering that last part.
Chris
I'm not surprised. The original material I researched is decades old, but even then we were using magnesium wheels and lighter racing components, in general. Fast forward to today, and even with the huge advances in tech, I cannot see unsprung mass being lower. To be fair, Sbarro had an application for the 4-wheeled world, and I might be conflating the two.
I'd be interested to see how the suspension was setup for their test/ride and who the rider was. I wonder too if the bike was equipped with Ohlins or Wilburs (Ohlins much better IMO), but either way, I don't think either is the latest of the electronic suspension which might greatly benefit this type of bike depending on riding/venue. Needless to say, Autoevolution would not be one of my top sources for a bike review, lol. My more extreme perfornance bikes are set up quite stiffly and road use handling does suffer somewhat if the surface is not relatively smooth and even if I'm not riding illegally fast. For me, the real test will be riding one the way I typically ride in the areas I ride most frequently.
Troy Siaahan at motorcycle.com rode the bike in 2024 -- good rider whose impressions I generally agree with -- and no doubt there have been improvements to the bike soon to be available stateside. I did note that the 240mm rear tire likely contributes to it's steering characteristics... the steeper rake, for example, might be a way to reduce the slow turn-in. It's worth it for me to arrange a demo ride, but realistically, this probably won't be the e-bike on which I pull my first trigger. But, I'll keep an open mind...
I noticed a few things right off the bat.
First, the whole novelty of the hubless rear wheel is cool. It's eye-catching. I went once with a guy who had a Can-Am when they first came out and when we stopped at a rest stop, he was swarmed by people wanting to see it. Can you imagine what would've happened if that Verge showed up?!?! It'd be hilarious. Add another hour for each rest break, simply to fight off the crowds.
Then the technical side of me took over. First, the 1100 nm torque figure. That's massively insane...in a good way. On a ICE engine, that would mean you didn't have to shift hardly at all...but wait...you don't have to shift. You'd have massive instantaneous acceleration. The kind that could have you smoking the rear tire from every stop...unless you have traction control to tame it. Ahh...they do. Then there's the 240 mm rear tire. Either they are trying to deal with a lot of weight in the rear, or dealing with traction issues. It appears the answer is both.
And then I started looking at the performance specs. 0-100 kph. 3.5 seconds. For those of us used to thinking in terms of mph, it sounds impressive but how much is 100 kph? Hmm...only 60 mph. Not as impressive. (The Marketing folks probably looked at that and said, we'd better stick with metric to seem better.) Then the time to reach 60 mph looks fast, till you start comparing that with current motorcycles. And then it isn't that impressive. Doing a quick search on the Brave browser's search engine:
Now I'm realizing the Emperor has no clothes.
And lastly, the practical side of me agrees with the OP. There's nothing practical about it. It's not that I'm against fun, joy, etc., but years of commuting on a motorcycle taught me the value of storage. Where do I put my laptop and lunch? If I want to stop at the grocery store to pick up some bread and eggs on the way home...where do I put them? Oh!...I go home, park the Verge and go back by car or bus to the grocery store. That sounds exciting. And yes, I can put it all in a backpack. Backpacks on a motorcycle suck.
It'd be a great bike for going to the local biker bar and home.
Chris
First, the whole novelty of the hubless rear wheel is cool. It's eye-catching. I went once with a guy who had a Can-Am when they first came out and when we stopped at a rest stop, he was swarmed by people wanting to see it. Can you imagine what would've happened if that Verge showed up?!?!
It'd be hilarious. Add another hour for each rest break, simply to fight off the crowds. Then the technical side of me took over. First, the 1100 nm torque figure. That's massively insane...in a good way. On a ICE engine, that would mean you didn't have to shift hardly at all...but wait...you don't have to shift. You'd have massive instantaneous acceleration. The kind that could have you smoking the rear tire from every stop...unless you have traction control to tame it. Ahh...they do. Then there's the 240 mm rear tire. Either they are trying to deal with a lot of weight in the rear, or dealing with traction issues. It appears the answer is both.
And then I started looking at the performance specs. 0-100 kph. 3.5 seconds. For those of us used to thinking in terms of mph, it sounds impressive but how much is 100 kph? Hmm...only 60 mph. Not as impressive. (The Marketing folks probably looked at that and said, we'd better stick with metric to seem better.) Then the time to reach 60 mph looks fast, till you start comparing that with current motorcycles. And then it isn't that impressive. Doing a quick search on the Brave browser's search engine:
So now I'm finding it isn't any faster than the current ST1300...which is how old? And weighs how much more? And the ST1100 is only a fraction of a second slower.
Now I'm realizing the Emperor has no clothes.
And lastly, the practical side of me agrees with the OP. There's nothing practical about it. It's not that I'm against fun, joy, etc., but years of commuting on a motorcycle taught me the value of storage. Where do I put my laptop and lunch? If I want to stop at the grocery store to pick up some bread and eggs on the way home...where do I put them? Oh!...I go home, park the Verge and go back by car or bus to the grocery store. That sounds exciting. And yes, I can put it all in a backpack. Backpacks on a motorcycle suck.
It'd be a great bike for going to the local biker bar and home.
Chris
I do like the cool factor for sure, but then again, several of my current bikes tend to make people stop and linger more closely than I like on the few occasions I take them out. And they are quite a bit cooler than the Verge, not to mention faster, big numbers or not. The 240mm tire is nothing new... Ducati's Diavel RS and (quite heavy) Yamaha VMX1700 (as an OEM upgrade) both feature 240mm tires and are also arguably faster than the Verge (2.5-ish second 0-100kph). And the torque/hp figures don't mean much if you can't get the power to the ground. Assuming their electronics are sorted, they would likely do better at the software level than the increased (marginal) traction difference between a 240mm vs. a more common 200mm DOT race tire which is undoubtedly more sticky. Untamed, that 800 ft-lbs of torque can put even an experienced rider on his/her ear. Still, I don't expect to be impressed with it's power (then again, I think the ST's are quite slow, lol)... the range on the other hand (and assuming it's a fun ride) has me somewhat interested. Moreover, I've been hoping for a consuner Sbarro-like bike since I first saw it in 1989, though I would prefer it if both wheels were hubless.
The practical argument never really resonated with me, because I don't buy motorcycles to be practical. In fact, the left pannier on my ST has busted locks and will not open until I get them sorted. Even with the right pannier available to me, I still carry things daily in a photo gear backpack. Yes, I can pick up a few groceries on the way home if need be, but I'm also one of those people who go into the store for one or two things and come out with 20, lol.
My bigger issue is the $45K for the Ultra... even with higher spec than the standard, it is NOT a $45k motorcycle IMHO. It seems like you're paying for the R&D and for the (lack of) economy of scale. This is a $45k (okay, +$5k more) bike, which I suspect is a loss leader for Ducati. Typically hated on because of price, exclusivity, and customers who purchase but never ride, they are the pinnacle of 2-wheeled tech available to the public, extremely well built, and incredibly exciting to ride. But they aren't very practical either, unless you're on the track.
The practical argument never really resonated with me, because I don't buy motorcycles to be practical. In fact, the left pannier on my ST has busted locks and will not open until I get them sorted. Even with the right pannier available to me, I still carry things daily in a photo gear backpack. Yes, I can pick up a few groceries on the way home if need be, but I'm also one of those people who go into the store for one or two things and come out with 20, lol.
My bigger issue is the $45K for the Ultra... even with higher spec than the standard, it is NOT a $45k motorcycle IMHO. It seems like you're paying for the R&D and for the (lack of) economy of scale. This is a $45k (okay, +$5k more) bike, which I suspect is a loss leader for Ducati. Typically hated on because of price, exclusivity, and customers who purchase but never ride, they are the pinnacle of 2-wheeled tech available to the public, extremely well built, and incredibly exciting to ride. But they aren't very practical either, unless you're on the track.
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ST Gui
240Robert
My original remark was sarcasm aimed at the unequal application of the word. When someone calls something/anything a toy it's almost always done to disparage or show disapproval of something as unworthy in the eyes of anyone casting the aspersion. As though owning that something should be an embarrassment. Which is often subjective but fine for the beholder. But stated in a manner that anyone else should accept as objective fact. That says more about the disparager than the disparagee.
Whether or not something is a toy in my mind that is no reason for me to throw shade on someone else's something. 'Even' H-Ds./s Not my choice doesn't mean someone else made a bad choice. And I don't regard my or anyone else's purchases as a toy regardless if it's fit for purpose or not. Choice is good.
Someone's purchase of an F-150 doesn't make someone else's purchase of a Miata wrong. And someone's purchase of an F-150 that never carries anything in the bed doesn't make it a wrong if the owner is happy.
Discussing objective facts as to strengths and weakness is good. But there's a forum mentality that's part of a lot of human psychology — "If I say it's a sucks it sucks for everybody because I said so". It's pervasive in humanity but there are always notable exceptions.
So no matter where you go there you are.
I generally do not spend much time thinking as deep as you elucidated. Call it "simple pleasures for simple minds."
Certainly, "toy" means different things to different people. In my case, I was referring to the fact that most motorcycles purchased in the USA are more for pleasure/luxury than necessity. I do not judge anyone for their purchases no matter how frivolous they may seem, nor am I "moto-tribal" or drink any form of Kool-Aid despite my outspokenness for certain brands. To your point, a poser cruiser, ADV bike that doesn't see dirt, hyperformance bike that doesn't see the track, or a touring/sport touring bike that only sees a thousand or two annual miles is no different than an F150 with a spotless bed or a Miata whose top is never down. And there is nothing wrong with that as I know owners of all the aforementioned types of vehicles. As long as the bike (or cage) puts a smile on someone's face and (hopefully) stirs them emotionally, that's all that matters to me. I ride a beater ST1100 almost every day, but I'm also the owner of several bikes that the average forum member (across most platforms) likes to hate, ridicule, or make assumptions based on speculation. But it doesn't bother me enough to come to any of their defenses.
I'd rather be ridiculed and have, than not be and not have.