Put a new Metzler Roadtec Z8 Interac on my rear tire. It now has a repeating (comes and goes) vibration between 45 mph and 65 mph. When I downshift into fourth gear, I don't notice the vibration any longer at the same speed range. The tire was balanced at my motorcycle shop. Any ideas of the cause.
I have a vibration in my tire after putting new one on the rear.
- Thread starter toolguy345
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I would also check that the tire is round. I had an Avon tire that felt fine at 35 mph when the shop did a test ride after installing the new tire. When I took it home at freeway speeds, the vibration showed up. We checked wheel balance, and all was good. Finally someone noticed that as the tire & wheel rotated slowly, the tire was visibly not round. I'm not sure that's understandable. Put the bike on the centerstand. Take a pencil or something else straight. Lay it against the fork and at the center of the tread area. Then slowly rotate the wheel and see if the pencil stays in place or is pushed up out of the way.
Chris
Chris
Yeah, shop probably didn't do good job balancing tyre. I've found you have to mount and remount tyres TWICE to get optimum balance. Major mistake ALL shops make is to assume that heavy-spot on wheel is at valve-stem. Most of time, I've found that's NOT the case. Here's rear-wheel from my ST. I've marked heavy-spot with "H" after spinning bare wheel on balancer, both ways, 5 times.
and some other wheel.
Shop's next big mistake is assuming that yellow or red dot on tyre is actually light-spot. Nope, it's usually off by quite a bit. So what happens is they automatically install tyre with red/yel dot lined up with valve-stem!!! This lines up light-spot on tyre with light-spot on rim (thus heavy-spot lands on heavy-spot) and imbalance is doubled and huge amount of weights must be used to balance. And they end up not taking time to do it, just slap on original weight and that's it.
I'd take off wheel and make sure bearings are smooth. Brake disc is flat and clean. Pads have plenty of meat on them. And slider pins are lubed.
Then put wheel on balancer and see how far off they were.
and some other wheel.
Shop's next big mistake is assuming that yellow or red dot on tyre is actually light-spot. Nope, it's usually off by quite a bit. So what happens is they automatically install tyre with red/yel dot lined up with valve-stem!!! This lines up light-spot on tyre with light-spot on rim (thus heavy-spot lands on heavy-spot) and imbalance is doubled and huge amount of weights must be used to balance. And they end up not taking time to do it, just slap on original weight and that's it.
I'd take off wheel and make sure bearings are smooth. Brake disc is flat and clean. Pads have plenty of meat on them. And slider pins are lubed.
Then put wheel on balancer and see how far off they were.
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While it could be the person who installed the tire, didn't clean the rim before installing it, causing it to fight while seating the bead etc.
As pointed out, it could also be they didn't know how to balance it very well...
But, Metzler tires have been known for spooky vibrations on these bikes.
Search the forum and internet and you'll find all kinds of comments about Metzler tire vibrations, some bad enough that the owners removed the tires after very few miles.
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Marc Parnes balancer shown, which I have used plenty of times, is only good to 1/4 to 1/2 oz according to Marc. For most bikes riding under 150 mph that variance is adequate. Hyperbole mine.Yeah, shop probably didn't do good job balancing tyre. I've found you have to mount and remount tyres TWICE to get optimum balance. Major mistake ALL shops make is to assume that heavy-spot on wheel is at valve-step. Most of time, I've found that's NOT the case. Here's rear-wheel from my ST. I've marked heavy-spot with "H" after spinning bare wheel on balancer, both ways, 5 times.
and some other wheel.
Shop's next big mistake is assuming that yellow or red dot on tyre is actually light-spot. Nope, it's usually off by quite a bit. So what happens is they automatically install tyre with red/yel dot lined up with valve-stem!!! This lines up light-spot on tyre with light-spot on rim (thus heavy-spot lands on heavy-spot) and imbalance is doubled and huge amount of weights must be used to balance. And they end up not taking time to do it, just slap on original weight and that's it.
I'd take off wheel and make sure bearings are smooth. Brake disc is flat and clean. Pads have plenty of meat on them. And slider pins are lubed.
Then put wheel on balancer and see how far off they were.
If a shop does a decent job mounting the tire that doesn't have out of round issues and balances it using a Coates or name brand dynamic balancer all the hoops you mentioned don't matter if the final weight added is not excessive. Honda's spec is <60 grams or about 2 oz of weight.
Regardless of balancer used, if you find true heavy-spots on wheel and tyre and offset them precisely, this would result in least amount of weight needed for balance. For exact same parts. 
I’ve re-balanced wheels received from shops that had over 2-oz of weights and ended up with less than 1/2-oz of weights actually needed. Then as tyre wears, entire assembly also goes out-of-balance much less. Or if weights fall off for whatever reason.
It’s like not using torque-wrench for critical fasteners. Most of time it’ll be fine. But if you can do better, why not? Especially if you run into that 20% when it does matter.
I’ve re-balanced wheels received from shops that had over 2-oz of weights and ended up with less than 1/2-oz of weights actually needed. Then as tyre wears, entire assembly also goes out-of-balance much less. Or if weights fall off for whatever reason.
It’s like not using torque-wrench for critical fasteners. Most of time it’ll be fine. But if you can do better, why not? Especially if you run into that 20% when it does matter.
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Ryan_B
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If you change nothing but the gear you are in and the vibration goes away, it is not an unbalanced tire in my mind. The tire should not care how fast your engine is running. Try pulling the clutch in once you feel the vibration, see if it gets worse or better.
Did they work on anything else when they balanced the tires? If not, I would be looking closely at the rear brake. I think @Igofar walked me through my first time reassembly of the rear brake. Something about if you follow the manual it is actually causing the rear brake bracket to be slightly tweaked? Maybe I misunderstood somewhat, but as I understood it the bracket or caliper could be not centered correctly if you were not careful.
Ryan
Is there a yellow dot on the sidewall?
If so it should be lined up with the tire valve.
If so it should be lined up with the tire valve.
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I agree with most of that but a dynamic balancer can do a better job in less time than the one pictured which is the point I’m trying to make. If the weight needed using a dynamic balancer is within Honda’s spec, we arrive at the same place right? If you take 1/2 oz static on a given wheel assembly, a dynamic balancer can take that 1/2 oz and split it into 1/4 oz on either side of the rim where needed. The Parnes is not that accurate under 1/2 oz but it's plenty accurate for non factory racers like me. Hyperbole mine.Regardless of balancer used, if you find true heavy-spots on wheel and tyre and offset them precisely, this would result in least amount of weight needed for balance. For exact same parts.
I’ve re-balanced wheels received from shops that had over 2-oz of weights and ended up with less than 1/2-oz of weights actually needed. Then as tyre wears, entire assembly also goes out-of-balance much less. Or if weights fall off for whatever reason.
It’s like not using torque-wrench for critical fasteners. Most of time it’ll be fine. But if you can do better, why not? Especially if you run into that 20% when it does matter.
We DIY guys can take the time to mark everything but a commercial shop isn’t going to make any money doing that. Now if the wheel comes out to the customer with excessive weight to balance that’s not acceptable (your examples mentioned are way out of Honda's spec) but if it does come out with less than 60 grams it's likely to live out it's life without needing rebalancing, at least in my 480,000 miles of wearing out motorcycle tires. Your experience may well be different
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A vibration that comes and goes seems to be to more a harmonic vibration when the vibrations of the wheel assembly and engine rpm are related. Changing gears and it goes away reinforces that to me.
NO!!! In ideal world, yes. That yellow dot should represent lightest spot on tyre. But... it's applied by humans and results vary based upon if it was done before or after lunch break with liquor! I've found them to be off by 30-90 degrees in most cases. So here's my "optimum balancing" procedure that yields lowest amounts of weights needed for any given wheel+tyre combo, often just 1/4 or 1/2-oz. Many times, I need zero weights to get optimum balance because tyre's heavy-spot cancels out wheel's heavy-spot. Trick is finding where those are...
1. spin bare wheel on balancer to find true heavy-spot. On manual balancer, spin it in both directions multiple times and average out lowest spot which will be wheel's heavy-spot. Mark this heavy-spot of wheel (see photos above. Note that's it's not automatically at valve-stem like most assume). Here's another example of wheels' heavy-spot not being at valve-stem.
2. balance bare wheel. Verify by spinning it both ways and having it stop at random locations based upon when drag in balancer bearings stops it. Now you've got perfectly balanced wheel with no heavy-spot. Note where weights are located relative to valve-stem... not exactly opposite like you would think. Assuming heavy-spot is at valve-stem without checking will end up having you use extra weight to balance final assembly.
3. install tyre any which way and spin it in both directions to find actual light-spot on tyre itself. Note that it's most likely not at yellow dot. So... ignore yellow/red dot, it's not accurate. Mark actual light-spot on tyre that you found.
4. unmount tyre, remove balance weight from rim. Re-mount tyre with marked light-spot lined up with marked heavy-spot on wheel. This places actual heavy-spot of tyre opposite actual heavy-spot of wheel and they cancel each other out.
5. do final balance of complete assembly, verify by spinning in both directions.
You'll find that this double-mounting procedure will result in optimum orientation of tyre on wheel for lowest balancing weights needed. It'll stay in balance better throughout life of tyre and never needs rebalancing common with quickey lazy methods.
I'm pretty hard on my tyres and bikes. I'll track everything, even my ST and pin it @ top-speed every lap! I'll off-road it doing jumps and take it through creeks and river crossings! Sometimes, this will knock wheel-weight off. If there's mimimal weights installed in beginning, losing them won't throw assembly out of whack too much.
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Ryan_B
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Ah okay, I didn't realize they could be related - I always thought that tires are either balanced or not. I seem to be reminded how little I know every day!
If there is any out-of-roundness or improper bead-seating, balancing will not correct it.
Either should be readily obvious while spinning the tire, perhaps with a reference stick.
Either should be readily obvious while spinning the tire, perhaps with a reference stick.
They do that below I think 3500 engine RPM. It’s a harmonic vibration. Mine did that. Best front tire there is IMO, but not a good rear tire due to that vibration. You can test it by pulling in the clutch.
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if the wheels heavy mark is incorrect what's to say the tires heavy spot is marked correctly?NO!!! In ideal world, yes. That yellow dot should represent lightest spot on tyre. But... it's applied by humans and results vary based upon if it was done before of after lunch break with liquor! I've found them to be off by 30-90 degrees in most cases. So here's my "optimum balancing" procedure that yields lowest amounts of weights needed for any given wheel+tyre combo, often just 1/4 or 1/2-oz. Many times, I need zero weights to get optimum balance because tyre's heavy-spot cancels out wheel's heavy-spot. Trick is finding where those are...
1. spin bare wheel on balancer to find true heavy-spot. On manual balancer, spin it in both directions multiple times and average out lowest spot which will be wheel's heavy-spot. Mark this heavy-spot of wheel (see photos above. Note that's it's not automatically at valve-stem like most assume). Here's another example of wheels' heavy-spot not being at valve-stem.
2. balance bare wheel. Verify by spinning it both ways and having it stop at random locations based upon when drag in balancer bearings stops it. Now you've got perfectly balanced wheel with no heavy-spot. Note where weights are located relative to valve-stem... not exactly opposite like you would think. Assuming heavy-spot is at valve-stem without checking will end up having you use extra weight to balance final assembly.
3. install tyre any which way and spin it in both directions to find actual light-spot on tyre itself. Note that it's most likely not at yellow dot. So... ignore yellow/red dot, it's not accurate. Mark actual light-spot on tyre that you found.
4. unmount tyre, remove balance weight from rim. Re-mount tyre with marked light-spot lined up with marked heavy-spot on wheel. This places actual heavy-spot of tyre opposite actual heavy-spot of wheel and they cancel each other out.
5. do final balance of complete assembly, verify by spinning in both directions.
You'll find that this double-mounting procedure will result in optimum orientation of tyre on wheel for lowest balancing weights needed. It'll stay in balance better throughout life of tyre and never needs rebalancing common with quickey lazy methods. I'm pretty hard on my tyres and bikes. I'll track everything, even my ST and pin it @ top-speed every lap! I'll off-road it doing jumps and take it through creeks and river crossings! Sometimes, this will knock wheel-weight off. If there's mimimal weights installed in beginning, losing them won't throw assembly out of whack too much.
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I favor Michelins and - no dot!
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It could still be a tire or balance thing in concert with drive line harmonics.Ah okay, I didn't realize they could be related - I always thought that tires are either balanced or not. I seem to be reminded how little I know every day!
That's why I measure them and make my own mark from actual testing.
Once you have perfectly balanced bare wheel, putting tyre on it means any imbalance is from tyre alone.
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IMO that's a lot of extra work , on my ST I never aligned dots and never put more than 3/4 oz sometimes 1/4oz. Now if it took what seemed to be excessive I would rotate the tire and visually spin and inspect the tire. Now if your doing track days it might be worth the effort but for every day touring no. The best way to do it is a hi speed balance. I can get the rear wheel of my BMW on a spin balancer and it only took 1/2 oz but I can't fit the front one. I don't know if anyone has a hi speed balancer for m/c tires. Just my thoughts.