Kenwood / Autocom AT-2 Confusion

amnesia

First off I appologize for the length of this post.

I have been doing some research for the purchase of an Autocom system (Super Pro AVi) to use for bike-bike, and I noticed lots of useful information on this forum regarding the Kenwood radio's for this set-up.
I, like many here, don't want to pay $300 for the AT2. I noticed lots of confused and unhappy buyers of various Kenwood products, so I thought I'd share what I've found out

First off, the two units from Autocom are the following Kenwood products:

Autocom................. Kenwood equivalent................. Autocom Direct Power supply
AT-2........................TK-3200 L (2 watts).................... 1402
AT-4........................TK-3202 L (4 watts).....................not recommended for 4 watt unit
TK-3101...................TK-3101 (2 watts).......................102P

Most who want to power the radio directly from the AVi will want the AT2. The TK-3101 is still a great option (if you can find one). The advantage is that the user can program the CTCSS squelch codes (or Quiet Talk as Kenwood calls it) "on the fly" without the need for programming cables or computers.
Also the 3101 generally comes programmed with the FRS/GMRS frequencies which most will want if they plan to communicate with other bikers with various different radios. The biggest disadvantage is that it doesn't come with a lithium battery, and therfore has a much shorter battery life if not powered by the bike/Autocom.

Sounds simple? NOT QUITE!!!!

Here's the main issues:

Frequencies:

Kenwood custom programs the AT-2 (and 4) to the FRS/GMRS channels. These are the same channels that the 1301 came programed with from the factory. Frequencies 1-7 are the same as all FRS radios, and 1-15 are the same as the more powerful GMRS sold by electronics stores.

Here's the Autocom frequency chart: http://www.autocomamerica.com/files/AT2-AT4_Frequencies.pdf

These are the frequencies that you want to have programed into your Kenwood Radio


Models: This is where the problems start.

TK-3101
-also referred to as FreeTalk XL
-old unit which has been replaced by AT-2
-comes factory programmed with the correct frequencies. However, this is a "programmable" radio. This means that with the aid of a computer running the proper software and the correct programing cable, the frequencies can be changed to any in the spectrum which the radio has been designed for.
this means that if you buy one used it may have been re-programmed to the wrong frequencies and you will have to "re-program" it again to return it to FRS/GMRS compatibility.
-The cable is KPG-22 (serial version with DB-9 connector)
-The software is KPG-48D. This is easily found for free on the internet. Note that it is DOS software which must be run on a DOS machine (not a windows machine in a DOS window!)
-the battery for this radio is KNB-14 (NiCd) and the stubby antenna is KRA-17M
-CTCSS may be programmed using only the radio's controlls (cumbersome but "do-able") It is these codes that prevent unwanted reception on the selected channel. This is important on the FRS frequencies, as there are lots of unwanted transmittions. All radios in the group must be set to the same Code. Autocom programmes the AT-2 to code 00 which means no code.
this is fine except you will pick up lots of noise and won't be able to communicate back to any one with a code set!!


TK-3200 -THis is a bit more tricky. Kenwood makes many versions of this radio (many of which you don't want!)

First the nomenclature:
L = Lithium Battery (good)
U = UHF (good)
P = Protalk (very bad)
K = 2 channel
K2= 8 channel
K3= 15 channel

-kenwood makes 2 basic versions of this radio

-Protalk (TK-3200 LUP, TK3200 L-U15P) Sometimes referred to as "MPD" chassis

-NOT computer programable
-comes already programed with a table of 56 frequencies which the user may select from (NONE OF WHICH ARE FRS/GMRS)
-CAN'T BE PROGRAMMED TO FRS/GMRS
-Stay away from these if you want to talk to your buddies!
-usually say "protalk" on front cover just under speaker grill
-CTCSS are user programable without computer


-TK-3200L (NON PROTALK VERSION) sometimes referred to as "LMR" chassis

-can be computer programmed to the FRS/GMRS frequencies
you will need the correct windows software KPG-88D. I believe you will need Version 2
you will also the correct cable. I believe this must be a USB cable and I'm not sure of the part number.
-CTCSS codes must be programed with computer and cable
-these radios can usually be identified by the words TK-3200 (instead of Protalk) on the front cover
- The battery is KNB-45L, and the Stubby antenna is KRA-17
-THIS IS THE ONE YOU WANT


CHANNEL SPACING
Most of these radios can be programmed (with a computer) to WIDE (25 kHz) or NARROW (12.5 kHz) channel spacing. All radios must be set on the same setting to communicate. THis can come into play with FRS radios which I believe are all NARROW, but I'm not sure.


So When you buy one of these radios, make sure it doesn't have a "P" or PROTALK in the name or on the front grill. You must get the shop to program it to the FRS/GMRS frequencies. If you know any of your buddies use QUIET TALK (CTCSS) privacy codes, have these programmed in, otherwise leave them off.
Make sure the CHANNEL SPACING is set where you want it. THis could be an issue as your buddies with TK-3101's may have a different setting from your buddies with cheaper FRS/GMRS radios! Best get a cable and software so you can change things later!.

***Interesting info: The 1402 12 volt adapter is designed for the UK model 3201 which is a .5 watt unit. Also the 102P is designed for the UK 3101 which is also a .5 watt unit. The autocom can apparently handle the current draw of a 2 watt transmitter, but there are no guarantees from Autocom. 4 watts is definitely out!


I would greatly apprediate hearing from anyone who has actually purchased a TK-3200L and has experience using it. I would especially like to know which cable they use to program it, and which software, as well as where to get it!


Here's a link to someone who actually knows something about this and sells a TK-3200 radio which should work!!!
http://www.sporttouring.ca/collections/bike-to-bike
 
Okay, so I will admit that I didn't read your ENTIRE post, but I will easily tell you one thing, you can get just about any radio you want to work with the Autocom, what you WILL BE LIMITED BY, is if you want to power the radio by the Autocom.

If you don't get a radio specific to Autocom chances are you will have RF problems (people will complain of a screeching noises). If you run off the radio battery, then you will be fine.

I suppose that most of the local GMS radios that you can pick up at any store probably run off of AA or maybe AAA batteries and you will go through 'em every day of riding. If you look far enough (I've never done a search on 'em) you might find some that have rechargable batteries), which is a better way to go.
 
If you buy an ICom F-21 GMRS radio it has what you want and is a rugged weatherproof radio. With a battery eliminator and connected to the Autocom there are no noise issues. Except those being put out by others trying to use the frequency. :)

All the codes are programmed using the radio's buttons. There is no display which makes things a little more cumbersome but once set you don't need to bother with it.
 
Sorry to disagree NightRDR. You actually can purchase a 3200 which will work! You just have to purchase the correct one. I'm sure that you're referring to MLRickards:

https://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33025&page=3&highlight=kenwood+3200

He bought the TK-3200LU15P which if you read my thread is the incorrect model. The P stands for Protalk which can't be programmed. The correct model is TK-3200L which is totally programmable. You just have to be carefull because many resellers and posters use the two model numbers interchangeable! This is exactly why I started this thread - to try and clear up some of the confusion and hopefully to prevent anyone else from making this same mistake.

Interestingly, Calgary Sport Touring sells a 3200 which says Protalk on it and it is programmable. Go figure!

And yes the 3202 is fully programmable and will work. The only problem is if you want to power it off the Autocom, you'll have to go into the test mode and decrease the output power to 2-3 watts or you risk blowing the Autocom's board.

Does anyone have the software and cable to program a 3200L? If so I'd really like to hear from you!
 
amnesia said:
Kenwood custom programs the AT-2 (and 4) to the FRS/GMRS channels. These are the same channels that the 1301 came programed with from the factory. Frequencies 1-7 are the same as all FRS radios, and 1-15 are the same as the more powerful GMRS sold by electronics stores.
Click to expand...

The Autocom layout is Kenwood's standard GMRS layout. Channels 1-7 are the shared FRS/GMRS channels, 8-15 are GMRS-only. Almost all of the inexpensive radios you find in blister packs use the Motorola Talkabout Hybrid layout, which includes all 14 of the FRS channels. I have a nice cross-reference chart on STWiki that you can use to match up channels between brands: RadioReference

TK-3101 ... may have been re-programmed to the wrong frequencies and you will have to "re-program" it again to return it to FRS/GMRS compatibility.
Click to expand...

I have a standing offer to reprogram any Kenwood radio for which I have cables and software at no charge to ST owners except the cost of return postage. The price of a used 3101 plus about $20 in postage makes these radios a real bargain.

Protalk ... CAN'T BE PROGRAMMED TO FRS/GMRS
Click to expand...

When the FCC allowed bubble pack radios to use GMRS, they took that band out of the list where Part 90 (covers most land mobile) radios were allowed. The TK-3100 series was probably certified before that happened and they continued making them until a year or two ago. There are lots of those radios floating around. The 3200s are pretty much business band, and I suspect the FCC might be requiring the "pick-from-a-list" mode because people were buying the older radios and programming them on frequencies they shouldn't.

CHANNEL SPACING ... Most of these radios can be programmed (with a computer) to WIDE (25 kHz) or NARROW (12.5 kHz) channel spacing. All radios must be set on the same setting to communicate.
Click to expand...

That's true, but partially. The frequencies the channels are on has to do with the amount of "deviation" there is in the signal. Narrowband transmitters are designed to chew up 2.5 kHz on either side of the center frequency when the audio is "full blast" and wide ones do 5 kHz. The result of a narrow radio talking to a wide one will be usable but quiet audio; the opposite will work as long as the audio level is kept low enough that the audio doesn't deviate any more than 2.5 kHz.

***Interesting info: The 1402 12 volt adapter is designed for the UK model 3201 which is a .5 watt unit. Also the 102P is designed for the UK 3101 which is also a .5 watt unit. The autocom can apparently handle the current draw of a 2 watt transmitter, but there are no guarantees from Autocom. 4 watts is definitely out!
Click to expand...

I discussed this with Autocom, and their advice on the Pro7 sport (and probably the newer ones) is to arrange it so the current draw through the whole system's power cable is no more than 1A. I tried mine at 4W and the Autocom doesn't like it, so I'll be backing it down to 2.5 or 3 to see how it does. (If John Anthony is reading, that's the problem I described in my PM this morning. I did find the test equipment I need and should have it in hand next week.)

--Mark
 
BLRFL;

Thanks for the info. You obviously know a lot about radios. I don't know how the programable 3200's get out there, but they do! The best thing to do is probably buy an old 3101 and get the correct frequencies as well as on the fly CTCSS programability.

Do you know any way to get the KPG-88D (for free preferrably)?

I've seen others (KPG-87D for the 3202, and KPG-48D for the 3101)on the Internet, but not the KPG-88D. Interestingly, the 87D is version 1 and will only program the 8 channel 3202, and not the 16! On one brochure for the 3200 I found, they say you need KPG-88D ver 2.0. I guess they upgrade the software whenever a new radio comes out with more channels
 
Blrfl said:
....(If John Anthony is reading, that's the problem I described in my PM this morning. I did find the test equipment I need and should have it in hand next week.)

--Mark
Click to expand...

What else would I be doing on a Friday night!!! LOL.
 
Byron said:
If you buy an ICom F-21 GMRS radio it has what you want and is a rugged weatherproof radio. With a battery eliminator and connected to the Autocom there are no noise issues. Except those being put out by others trying to use the frequency. :)

All the codes are programmed using the radio's buttons. There is no display which makes things a little more cumbersome but once set you don't need to bother with it.
Click to expand...

Byron;

Interestingly, If you look at the spec sheet, the current draw of the ICom F-21 is:

Current drain Tx High: 1600 mA (4 watts)
Current drain Tx Low 1: 1200 mA (2 watts)
Current drain Tx Low 2: 800 mA (1 watts)
Current drain Rx: 250 mA
Current drain Standby: 70 mA

If you add this to the draw of the Super Pro AVi ( I don't know, say 200-500 mA?) you'll be way over the 1 amp capacity of the Autocom's power supply on all but the 1 watt setting and even there it will be iffy! I guess that's why Autocom UK only recommends their 0.5 watt radio (TK-3201) to be powered through the Super Pro Avi.
 
amnesia said:
Do you know any way to get the KPG-88D (for REDACTED)?
Click to expand...

We don't discuss the for free part here, lest we get Joe in trouble or at least get our threads canned.

:d1:

Most of the software is under $50 from Kenwood, so if you plan to program lots of radios, it's a bargain. Knockoff cables can be had dirt cheap on FleaBay if you look carefully. Some go as cheap as $10-12 shipped.

I use TK-350s, which are about a decade old and hold 160 channels. The standard programming that I use puts emulations of the various channel layouts in different banks.

Interesting power figures for the Icom. I'll have to measure one of my Kenwoods sometime and see how they do.

--Mark
 
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I don't mind paying for the software, but most dealers I've spoken with say they can't sell it period! It's kinda annoying. I think i'll just pick up a used 3101 on Ebay. This is probably why they go so fast!
 
Dealers are in the business of selling and programming radios. If they sell you the software, you won't come back and pay them to program your radios.

--Mark
 
Wow. KPG-23D and KPG-48D weren't that high last I priced them, but they are for older models. I wonder if they price the newer stuff higher.

--Mark
 
I picked up a used 3101 on ebay for $68, and bought a battery eliminator for it for under $20, which I plug into a powerlet outlet on the bike.

The 3101 was reprogrammed when I got it, but in great condition. Mark (brlflr ) very kindly reprogrammed it back to "stock" for me for the cost of postage. Works great on the bike, I have it plugged into a Starcomm system. So for about a $100 total investment I have a great radio!

I downloaded a manual from someplace on the internet, and figured out how to set the privacy codes so I'm all set to talk to the guys at WeSTOC. The PC programming requires little bit of practice, but after the first time or two it's pretty easy, actually.

Thanks again, Mark, for your knowledge and help!
 
Don-STOC237 said:
I picked up a used 3101 on ebay for $68, and bought a battery eliminator for it for under $20, which I plug into a powerlet outlet on the bike.
Click to expand...
Don-STOC237 said:
DON-STOC237

That's exactly what I plan to do. The software is easy to find on the net and cables are cheap on Ebay. I've all but given up on finding the software for a 3200!

Which battery eliminator did you get and where did you find it?
Click to expand...
 
My local dealer stocks the XLS model. The box says TK3131. $190. He says it's a 1 watt radio. Is this a variation of the 3101??
I'm almost not confused......
Bob
 
Not even close!

This is your basic plastic frs/gmrs similar to what you'de see at Best Buy. It is lower power, and not built to military specs like the 3101, 3200, and 3202 (but much smaller!) That said, I can't speak of it's funcionality because I've never tried it.
 
Don,

Was that you answering back during a radio check on Friday morning? (I was at the gas station filling the bike with my brother - who could hear but due to a failed PTT button, couldn't transmit)..... was about 8am on Friday as we were leaving taos.... ?

Thanks for all of your hard work at WeSTOC BTW.

<D>
PS: HiJack over!


Don-STOC237 said:
I picked up a used 3101 on ebay for $68, and bought a battery eliminator for it for under $20, which I plug into a powerlet outlet on the bike.

The 3101 was reprogrammed when I got it, but in great condition. Mark (brlflr ) very kindly reprogrammed it back to "stock" for me for the cost of postage. Works great on the bike, I have it plugged into a Starcomm system. So for about a $100 total investment I have a great radio!

I downloaded a manual from someplace on the internet, and figured out how to set the privacy codes so I'm all set to talk to the guys at WeSTOC. The PC programming requires little bit of practice, but after the first time or two it's pretty easy, actually.

Thanks again, Mark, for your knowledge and help!
Click to expand...
 
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Blrfl, Amnesia;

Will the TK-3200 U2 work with the Pro Avi?

Amnesia - you mentioned the L = a lithium battery and the U = UHF. As long as it doesn't have a "P" it should be programmable right??

Then maybe I could send them to Blrfl for programming. Blrfl do you still offer programming for ST-Os?

Does anyone know if Autocom still sells the 1402 power cable for the AT2/TK-3200. They have pulled both the AT2 and 1402 from there website.

Any information would be greatly appreciated.
 
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