Low MPG puzzle

[Andrew Shadow]

With regard to my post and the suggestion that I made in it, I did not suggest it because I believe that your ST1300, or any ST1300 for that matter, should be saved, salvaged, or a top priority at all costs. It is a machine, it commands only the emotions that we allow it to you. If you decide to bail on it and dump it so be it. The reason that I suggested it was because, based on the issues that you have described so far, none of it will be very costly to repair. The most expensive part of my suggestion will most likely be getting it to Larry and back home. I realize that is a considerable added expense but it may not be far from what a local shop will end up costing if their method of diagnosis is changing parts until it works, a reality that gets posted here far to often sadly. If it is not within your ability or desire that's fine and is completely understandable, obviously he is not around the corner from you. It was only suggested because as a new member of this forum I made the assumption that you most likely don't know Larry from a hole in the wall and therefore can't know that he would be the best place to go if it was at all an option.

No matter what you end up doing let us know how it all works out.
Good luck with it.

 

[5thMLC]

No matter what you end up doing let us know how it all works out.
Good luck with it.

Something Larry just got my attention on is EBC pads being a potential problem.
I need to pull them out and see what they are.
Again, I can do things, but having adequate workspace is my current obstacle and the first one to overcome.

 

[Igofar]

I can make that easier for you.
Just take a picture of the rear caliper from the rear, looking forward, so I can see the pistons, rotor, and pads, and I will tell you if they are EBC or not.

 

[5thMLC]

Great, I don't even have to get dirty, I'll do that, maybe even today.

 

[5thMLC]

I'll tiptoe into that quicksand...
Your GoFundMe, from what I've observed lately, may have a pretty good chance for success... but to really nail down a guaranteed return on that gamble, it would be helpful if you first unalive someone.
Some of the recent perpetrators have been amazed at the results, and have purchased a house. I don't know if a garage came with it, but it could happen.
If you choose not to take this route, ...I wouldn't blame you at all. Just throwing it out there; it certainly would not be my first choice.

Yeah, that was just my sacasam showing up. I am not a con artist.

 

[Sadlsor]

Yeah, that was just my sacasam showing up. I am not a con artist.

Hopefully, not a murderer, either.
By the way, I am bilingual.
As you're new here, you likely don't yet realize that sarcasm is my second language.

 

[jfheath]

There's a phrase that might be appropriate here: "You don't know what you don't know".

And the problem is - no matter how much experience you have with other bikes and how well you think you have done the work, there are things that will bite you.
They are not difficult, but you cannot pass them on in just a few words on here - and you do not know what the previous owner has done that is wrong and unsafe.

I'll throw a out a few examples.

1. Rear brakes dragging because someone changed the front tyre.
2. Front wheel not rotating freely after new bearings were fitted.
3. Rear caliper destroyed because someone did A and then B, when they should have done B then A.
4. Bike has developed a wobble because a couple of bolts holding the front axle were tightened in the wrong order.
5. Bike handling is weird because someone put in (say) the left wheel bearing first.
6. Brakes are dragging because too much grease was used.

And if you don't know what I am referring to in just one of those, then there are things to learn.
And yes, I can explain each of those comments, concisely). (Some on here will be surprised that I can do 'concise' ! )

I'm pretty good at sorting out my bike problems. But that is only my opinion. If I had the chance I'd be over to Arizona with bike in tow (and guitar in hand) and happy to be humbled just to learn from a real master. But I'm in the UK and there's a deep puddle in the way.

And anyway - I've just had my first 'motorcycle accident' in 50 years and am struggling to move. I've had 4 STs since my first in 1999. I have always parked them on the centre stand in the garage - its not a problem - just technique. A couple of days ago after a brilliant long ride, I wheeled it into the garage, popped it onto its centre stand - but my right calf muscle went pop instead. I blame the statins - anything but my own fault.

Stop laughing !!

 

[Sadlsor]

I reckon there's also the riding experience to consider, as well, in this conundrum.
By that, I mean @5thMLC doesnt have the time and the miles on the 1300 that others here have. So despite his mechanical prowess, and despite his living and riding with GoldWings and others, he has no true appreciation for the handling characteristics, pleasure, comfort and trouble- free ownership that I and others here find attractive.
Can't fault him for that, because as @jfheath wisely observes, "you don't know what you don't know."
We've also seen previous new owners join us who have bought an ST, and brought it home unaware of the service history and underlying problems. A few have neither the tools, space, confidence, patience, time, money, or inclination to resolve their issues, so they throw up their hands in disgust and get rid of it.
No judgement here, only reminding ourselves again that "everything is figure-outable", but first there must be the will to do so.
Our CEO often reminds us, if a thing is not getting done, it is either a "will" issue or a "skill" issue. We can solve the skill issue, while if one does not want to do a thing, there is no recourse.
(Except to fire the person, but that resolution does not apply in this situation. )
So it's sad to watch someone give up on an ST, but there may be many reasons to do so, some of which may be unknown to us.

 

[5thMLC]

So it's sad to watch someone give up on an ST, but there may be many reasons to do so, some of which may be unknown to us.

Who said I am giving up?, The thought did cross my mind, as it seems I got more than I bargained for, and not all in a good way.
However, I am still looking for a larger storage unit to rent, so I can address some of the issues.
I learned last night that the bike has aftermarket brake pads, which is potentially reason #1 for the dragging, so getting Honda OEM pads is at the top of the list.
Flushing and cleaning up the system to follow.
"Push it 'till it breaks, then back off a notch." doesn't apply here. I don't want to know what happens in the breaking stage of pushing too hard, so after 500 miles of not finding out, I don't want to push my luck over the threshold.
It's now officially a project in progress, but I don't expect a mysterious cure for every issue by tomorrow afternoon.

 

[Sadlsor]

I've read of your space / storage issues, and if I've prematurely believed you're done with it, I apologize.
I feel your frustration coming through some of your posts, and I'd certainly be frustrated... and I truly was, with my own SMC issue shortly after bringing my 2008 home.
@Igofar relieved that frustration, once I bought a new SMC and spent several hours on the phone with him.
But I have the garage space and the tools, and he had the patience and experience.

 

[5thMLC]

I still have 2 wheels to ride, but have to do the pedaling instead, 58 degrees outside, 7 MPH wind, time to hit the road for the usual 4 miles on most days, 700 miles on SuperCycle app odometer and counting, plus 150 miles logged on before app crashed first time.
Later

 

[5thMLC]

After some soul (and wallet) searching, I concluded that I have no choice but to do the work myself, and an ongoing search for a larger storage unit is still a priority.
I am also in the process of gathering parts that I will need.
My "Lady in red" could turn into a backstabbing bitch if I ignore what I've discovered so far
OEM brake pads, Honda coolant, thermostat, fuel filter, and silicone grease are on their way.

1)
A question arises: since SMC is highly suspect, is cleaning it worth the risk of false security?
If I'm replacing it, should I look to buy the piston alone or the entire assembly, including the bracket and mounting hardware?

2)
No idea if or when calipers were last rebuilt with fresh o-rings, I am not finding OEM rebuilding kits anywhere, am I stuck with having to fish dozens of individual rubber pieces from OEM complete caliper assemblies?
I found aftermarket kits ranging from $35 to $50 a piece, likely of "best Chinese quality" with a 1000 % markup, and that begs the question:
What is the difference between the OEM rubber o-ring and the aftermarket one if size, shape, and function are identical?

This has possibly already been answered somewhere, but because I don't know what I don't know, fresh advice is highly appreciated.

 

[5thMLC]

Anyone used these kits?

 

[SMSW]

1)
A question arises: since SMC is highly suspect, is cleaning it worth the risk of false security?
If I'm replacing it, should I look to buy the piston alone or the entire assembly, including the bracket and mounting hardware?

2)
No idea if or when calipers were last rebuilt with fresh o-rings, I am not finding OEM rebuilding kits anywhere, am I stuck with having to fish dozens of individual rubber pieces from OEM complete caliper assemblies?
I found aftermarket kits ranging from $35 to $50 a piece, likely of "best Chinese quality" with a 1000 % markup, and that begs the question:
What is the difference between the OEM rubber o-ring and the aftermarket one if size, shape, and function are identical?

This has possibly already been answered somewhere, but because I don't know what I don't know, fresh advice is highly appreciated.

1. The best I've read here about overhauling the SMC is this job might get you a few months more life out of it. The worst is its a waste of time and money with no benefit at all. I've been working on my cars and bikes for most of my adult life and I really dislike doing a job twice because I cut corners by being too cheap when I could afford to replace parts I suspected would not go the distance. That's me, YMMV.

2. Did you look at the parts fiche for your bike on say Ron Ayers or Hondapartshouse.com and check availablity for the parts you need?

 

[jfheath]

You really need to find out what is causing the issue.

But if it is the SMC - and I'd be tempted to buy that anyway given the age of the beast. The service kit would be a waste of money. It is more likely to be the bore that has corroded and/or distorted, or the inner working bunged up with crud and rust / oxide.

The pistons in the calipers are the expensive parts. There are 9 of them. If you can pump them out (without ejecting them completely) - you will get a good idea about whether or not they need replacing any sign of pitting or anything other than shiny metal that wont clean off and they may need to be replaced.

If you're getting in there then seals are a cheap(ish) fix.

I can't answer the question about after market parts. I always buy Honda. Expensive, but its worth not having to worry about it.

 

[5thMLC]

1. The best I've read here about overhauling the SMC is this job might get you a few months more life out of it. The worst is its a waste of time and money with no benefit at all. I've been working on my cars and bikes for most of my adult life and I really dislike doing a job twice because I cut corners by being too cheap when I could afford to replace parts I suspected would not go the distance. That's me, YMMV.

2. Did you look at the parts fiche for your bike on say Ron Ayers or Hondapartshouse.com and check availablity for the parts you need?

1
About $200 for the entire SMC assembly + shipping, ouch.

2
Ron Ayers and others only show fiches for entire brake calipers, no rebuild kits. It seems like I'd have to tear down a caliper, then look to match all individual pieces, which doesn't sound right to me.

 

[Sadlsor]

I agree with @SMSW ...the number of successful SMC "rebuilds", statistically speaking, is of no consequence. Consensus here, backed by actual reported results, is overwhelmingly in favor of replacement of the entire assembly, last checked at $180 - maybe now $200.
The caliper piston square o-rings *should* be available from a Honda parts dealer as mentioned above; the actual pistons should be reusable unless severely pitted and corroded. They can often be cleaned and reused without issue.
Keep us posted!

 

[5thMLC]

You really need to find out what is causing the issue.

But if it is the SMC - and I'd be tempted to buy that anyway given the age of the beast. The service kit would be a waste of money. It is more likely to be the bore that has corroded and/or distorted, or the inner working bunged up with crud and rust / oxide.

The pistons in the calipers are the expensive parts. There are 9 of them. If you can pump them out (without ejecting them completely) - you will get a good idea about whether or not they need replacing any sign of pitting or anything other than shiny metal that wont clean off and they may need to be replaced.

If you're getting in there then seals are a cheap(ish) fix.

I can't answer the question about after market parts. I always buy Honda. Expensive, but its worth not having to worry about it.

I haven't done anything yet, the likelihood of SMC being the culprit of dragging breaks seems to be high enough to anticipate having to replace it, so I am just gathering info at this point.
Tearing down all calipers is what I envision having to do to make sure nothing goes unchecked, replacing anything that needs replacing before bleeding the system.

 

[SMSW]

1
About $200 for the entire SMC assembly + shipping, ouch.

2
Ron Ayers and others only show fiches for entire brake calipers, no rebuild kits. It seems like I'd have to tear down a caliper, then look to match all individual pieces, which doesn't sound right to me.

1. Been there, done that wailing about parts prices. I have no solution for that other than remembering how a cheap edged tool from Harbor Fright failed and I had to waste time and buy the good tool I should have the first time. Consider that Honda discontinued these bikes and parts are going to go up in price as time wears on. I'd wager that an SMC bought today could be an investment and resold if you don't need it. That's been said before.

2. Right, I've seen no kits, you buy parts as you need them. Or gamble and buy a used caliper on ebay hoping all the pistons are good. Buy new Honda rubber pieces.

I like your approach of tearing down the calipers to check everything. I did that on one of my old Guzzi's and ended up replacing the entire caliper - the interior bore was pitted beyond saving.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

If the SMC is failing replace the complete SMC and bracket assembly and be done with it.

Nothing stops you from checking the rest of the brake system even if the SMC is defective. Remove the brake pads and pump the pistons out a small distance just so that you can thoroughly clean the them. An old shoe lace soaked in brake fluid see-sawed back and forth around the piston does a good job. Once they are clean you should be able to push the pistons back in to the caliper by hand. Watch that you don't push one piston out while pushing another one in. If they all can be pushed back in without herculean force I see no need to disassemble and rebuild the calipers unless the condition of the brake fluid suggests that a good cleaning is in order- Judgement call based on what you find. While you are removing the calipers you can inspect the condition of all of the other parts. Depending on how well the previous owner maintained this motorcycle you may only need a good cleaning and lubrication where required in addition to replacing the SMC.