Helmets Modular Helmet failures?

Mike, excellent analysis, I wear a Nolan 103 also and would drop it in a minute if there were any credible instances of latch mechanism failure.
As far as the CalSci incident, the rider was doing a coast to coast in 50 hours and appears to have fallen asleep. I fell asleep once while riding my bike. It scared the hell out of me so much I started shake. I had been tying to put on some "extra" miles. I spent the rest of the night at a rest stop wondering why I hadn't crashed. Take a look at the pictures and read the extent of the rider's injuries. It can also be argued the helmet saved his life.

http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Green.html
 
At least a few folks answered the original question ,I wonder how many extreme failures be it modular or solid will really be around the site to actually talk about it ? Did you here about the guy wearing a stich that wiped out doing a top speed run he was a great looking corpse, some stuff just is what it is.
 
We just have to assess the level of risk we are individually comfortable with and go with that and of course that is going to vary widely. No helmet, half helmet, 3/4 helmet, DOT modular with plastic & metal latch mechanism, DOT modular with all metal latch, FF DOT only, FF DOT/Snell 2005, FF DOT/Snell 2010, FF ECE/DOT, Race spec FF, padded room w/filtered air with ATGATT?

Someone that will not ever ride a motorcycle because they perceive the risk much too high that might be reading this thread may come to the conclusion that we are arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. No helmet is good enough for the nonrider - what helmet is good enough for you?
 
echo said:
Cute.

Theres no getting around having to secure the helmet to the head. Its a condition of properly wearing the helmet. Having a chin bar that flips up is totally optional. Some might even say its slavish catering to the fickle whims of the public. Have you seen people riding with the chin bar up? I have. Its very similiar to not wearing a helmet at all. Which is insane. (IMHO!) If someone gets injured/killed because the chin bar wasnt secured (or because the lock failed) I think the notion that this is design failure is quite valid.

People are free to do as they choose. But the laws of logic are immuteable.
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Not intending any cuteness, just pointing out that using any device other than in the manner for which it was designed introduces operator error. Using the same logic you've used, car seat belts suffer from design failure because they have to be put on each time you get into a car. Steak knives suffer from design failure because they can be used to injure the living.

Would you agree that leaving the visor down on a full face helmet is a condition of proper use? An operator could choose to leave the visor up and sustain eye injury as a result. Using your logic, that constitutes design failure because leaving the visor down is totally optional.

The "Instructions for Use" that came with my Nolan N103 include the following:

WARNING!!!
- Do not ride the motorcycle with the chin guard open. The chin guard MUST be closed and fastened while riding the motorcycle.
- Do no use the helmet without the chin guard.


For what it's worth, it is not necessary to open the chin guard to put on or take off the helmet, although I find it easier to have it open.

Anyone can misuse a product. I don't see how that constitutes design failure.
 
echo said:
If you dont close the chin bar its not my problem! That wont cut it in my line of work. The motto is "Failure Is Not An Option". You design it you own it.
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Send me something you designed and I'll find a way to make it "fail."

--Mark
 
Re: Helmet failures

Cable said:
As for the SHARK rating the tests are all done at 28mph so if you hit something at 28mph then the rating will help. If you hit something at 40mph+ it is anyone's guess.
This was told to me by a 5 star rated helmet distributor in the UK.
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That helmet distributor doesn't understand the physics of accidents. NO helmet is going to protect you if your helmet hits something solid at a speed of 40+mph. Fortunately, that's not the way most accidents happen. Even if you fall off your bike at 60 mph, the impact of your helmet on the ground doesn't have to absorb the energy of a 60 mph crash, because the impact is oblique. None of the helmet standards require tests at a impact level of 40+ mph. 28 mph is actually a very severe impact.

As for the original question, I've read of two accidents (not including the CalSci link posted above) where the chin bar on a flip up failed and caused injury and in one case death. At least one of those was one of the very first flip ups, a Fulmer IIRC. No, I'm afraid I don't have links to those reports. What isn't known is what would have happened in a standard full-face helmet. Would the chin bar have dug into the ground and broken the rider's neck? There's no way to know.

Here are my thoughts:

Almost by definition, a single piece full face helmet has a stronger chin bar than any flip up. There is some conceivable impact that will break the hinge or latch in a flip-up that a one-piece helmet would "survive." Whether the rider survives is an unknown.

Most of the less expensive flip up helmets use plastic latches and hinges. The Shoei Multitec uses metal components. That seems significant to me.

There's only one flip-up that's been Snell tested and approved. What does that mean? That it's possible to make a flip-up that will stay latched, AND can still be opened, after a severe impact. What does that fact that other flip-ups aren't Snell approved mean? Hard to say. It may mean they won't pass. Or it may mean that helmet makers don't think the buyers of flip-ups care as much about a Snell rating.

My opinion, and it's nothing more than that, is that a one-piece full face will be safer than a flip-up. That said, I wear a Shoei Multitec for commuting for two reasons. First, comfort. In mid-Atlantic summers it's really nice to be able to raise the front while at traffic lights. Second, convenience. At one of my work sites I need to show the guards my face, so they can compare it to the photo on my badge. Flipping up the front beats the heck out of having to take off the helmet.

When I'm not commuting, though, I wear an Arai full face most of the time.
 
Re: Helmet failures

Blue STreak said:
...
Here are my thoughts:

Almost by definition, a single piece full face helmet has a stronger chin bar than any flip up. There is some conceivable impact that will break the hinge or latch in a flip-up that a one-piece helmet would "survive." Whether the rider survives is an unknown.

Most of the less expensive flip up helmets use plastic latches and hinges. The Shoei Multitec uses metal components. That seems significant to me.

There's only one flip-up that's been Snell tested and approved. What does that mean? That it's possible to make a flip-up that will stay latched, AND can still be opened, after a severe impact. What does that fact that other flip-ups aren't Snell approved mean? Hard to say. It may mean they won't pass. Or it may mean that helmet makers don't think the buyers of flip-ups care as much about a Snell rating.

My opinion, and it's nothing more than that, is that a one-piece full face will be safer than a flip-up. That said, I wear a Shoei Multitec for commuting for two reasons. First, comfort. In mid-Atlantic summers it's really nice to be able to raise the front while at traffic lights. Second, convenience. At one of my work sites I need to show the guards my face, so they can compare it to the photo on my badge. Flipping up the front beats the heck out of having to take off the helmet.

When I'm not commuting, though, I wear an Arai full face most of the time.
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Well said Bob!

I wear a Shoei Multitech all the time for a few reasons myself. Lifting it at a stop light in 90F+ weather is great! I do it often. But the main reason for me is I get motion sickeness when riding on very windy roads :puk1: . By flipping up the front of the helmet, I get more air and not so sick!
 
Twilight Error said:
The old SNELL standard is unsafe and I will not buy a helmet certified to SNELL standards. DOT, as flawed as it is, permits the construction of a "softer" helmet. Softer helmets absorb more impact force and transmit less to the wearer.
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I thought Snell 2010 backed off a bit on that.

STPaulK said:
My understanding is they will test them, but the manufacturers have not submitted any for test.
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That was mine, too. I think Snell addresses that in their FAQ.

--Mark
 
Twilight Error said:
The old SNELL standard is unsafe and I will not buy a helmet certified to SNELL standards. DOT, as flawed as it is, permits the construction of a "softer" helmet. Softer helmets absorb more impact force and transmit less to the wearer.
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Snell 2000, 2005, or Snell 2010?
 
Twilight Error said:
I was wearing a Nolan N102 when I was rear-ended last year. Some 50' of tumbling down the road, hitting my head multiple times in multiple locations, the chinbar stayed intact throughout and when I finally came to a rest, I was able to lift the badly gouged visor out of my FOV via the very smoothly articulating chinbar. The front and left side of the helmet took considerable impacts, judging by the scars in the plastic shell. At no point in the experience did the chinbar come unlatched until I opened it myself.
A side benefit of the articulating chinbar became evident immedietly when I came to rest - I was able to instantly relieve the claustrophobia and panic that was rapidly rising by simply lifting the face of the helmet out of my way. It also allowed direct and clear communication to the first responders and EMTs on the scene, who were able to establish ABCs without taking the dangerous action of helmet removal on a patient with MOI for a bad neck/spine injury.
When Karen crashed in her N103, I had a similar experience. The visor and chinbar were scarred but intact. In her case, the major injury was to the back of her head. With the articulating chinbar, I could establish communication and assess her LOC while leaving the helmet in place for the EMTs/Docs to remove.
We both ride, very comfortably, in N103 helmets now, and will continue to wear Nolan modular helmets in the future.
Why not Shoei or Arai? It doesn't matter how well the helmet is built if it doesn't fit your head.
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These two accidents are two of the reasons that I now ride with a Nolan N103. Before that it was a Schuberth C2. I was considering a Scorpion Modular, but there was a thread here about the time that I was looking that discussed one opening during a small drop. The first two are winners, IMHO.

Steve:04biker
 
Chris Mixon had a real nasty get off with a N102... he is living to tell about it... and he's wearing another Nolan, IIRC. There a soooooo many variables in an accident that can't even be tested for... The fact you are wearing a lid, either modular or fullface is increasing your odds of survival.

The fact Snell gives a few open face helmets their nod just makes me laugh at the modular banter we are having about a stupid chin bar staying in place... they don't even have one :rofl1:
 
BigTom said:
SNELL WON'T TEST THEM. European CE test is at least as good, and many have made it through that....
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That is simply and totally untrue. Snell will test any real helmet the manufacturer submits and pays the test fee for. And there is one European made flip-up that has passed Snell.

http://www.webbikeworld.com/r2/zeus-helmet/zeus-3000/

A few years ago I read an interview with a Snell executive who, without naming any brands, implied the main issue with flip-ups was that to pass the chin bar still had to open after the chin bar impact test, and many of them jammed closed. The ECE, I believe, tests flip-face helmets against the open-face standards. In other words, they don't test the chin bar at all.

Twilight Error said:
The old SNELL standard is unsafe and I will not buy a helmet certified to SNELL standards. DOT, as flawed as it is, permits the construction of a "softer" helmet. Softer helmets absorb more impact force and transmit less to the wearer.
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That's not exactly true either. The problem with the old Snell test (pre-2010) was that they used the same headform weight for all helmet sizes. This meant that small, and to a lesser extent medium, sized helmets allowed higher g-forces to reach the head. For size large and larger helmets it wasn't an issue. And note that all Snell helmets sold in the US also meet DOT requirements. The problem with DOT standards is that manufacturers self-test and self-certify, and the DOT only spot checks for compliance. There have been more than a few "DOT" helmets that have failed to meet the standards when independently tested.

Here are lists of DOT helmet tests. A surprising number failed, and not all of them are from "off" brands. Helmets from KBC, Vega, AGV failed.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/testing/comply/fmvss218/

The Snell 2010 test, although flawed, may be the best at the moment for US helmets. The ECE test legally only applies to helmets sold in Europe, and the same helmet "name" sold in the US may or may not be the same as the Euro version.

Here's a real good article relating US and Euro helmet standards:

http://www.webbikeworld.com/eicma-2010/nolan-helmets/dot-vs-ece-helmet-safety-standards.htm
 
Twilight Error said:
It also allowed direct and clear communication to the first responders and EMTs on the scene, who were able to establish ABCs without taking the dangerous action of helmet removal on a patient with MOI for a bad neck/spine injury.
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The EMT's had no problem understanding my ABC's while I was wearing my full face helmet. I was even talking to them with my visor down for a period. I guess I don't see the advantage of the chinbar unless the EMT was hard of hearing. They are trained to get right down to your face and look at your eyes during that initial conversation. Come to think of it, Law Enforcement doesn't seem to have a hard time understanding me with my full face helmet either. They clearly hear me when I admit to not knowing my speed. :(
 
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