New default Welsh speed limit : 20mph!

[ad.hom]

OK, so I've been on hiatus a while, just busy with life, it's not that I don't love you lot... and I'm not promising how much I might be around. But something has happened that - at least the US gang might find mildly interesting / amusing, and I did a search, no-one has talked about it yet. So I figured I'd share.

The headline: As of Sept 17th 2023, the Welsh government decided that the default speed limit on all roads, would be 20mph, unless there's an exception applied.

Immediately, "everyone" (well, everyone that listens to mainstream media) was up in arms... "why are we dropping 60mph country roads to 20mph? The country will grind to a halt!" They decried. Of course, the devil is in the details, and the headline lacks detail.

So, the details. What they've actually done, is change everywhere that was a 30mph limit, to a 20mph limit. Some of the signs have moved around a bit, sometimes you'll be in a 20, then it opens to a 30, then up to NSL. Sometimes you'll go from NSL direct to 20mph, and a couple of hundred meters later, back to NSL again. That obviously cost more than the amount of change down the back of the Welsh sofa to enact, changing signage, painting roads, etc etc. About a week after the changes, the main bus company announced they've had to pay drivers £400,000 in overtime, because all the bus schedules are now messed up, and drivers have to work overtime to get the busses back to the depot.

Now then, why have they done this? The claim, is that it makes pedestrians and cyclists safer. Nothing to do with climate change this time. The statistics over time will be interesting to watch.

Meanwhile, it's also come to light that during the small local trials of this, the people in the trial area raised issues, and were ignored. We're now at a point where a petition of around half a million people (in a country of about 3million) asking for the law to be repealed.

So far, the anecdotal evidence from me driving around (car or bike) about the effect of the change:

• Probably thanks to the concertina effect of going from a 60mph area directly to a 20mph area, late braking leads to a LOT of vehicles tail gaiting. Most (not a scientific measurement) vehicles I see are now having gaps between vehicles measured in inches. Then because of the "frustration" they all accelerate at the same time and stay glued together when they're back in the NSL areas.
• Every time I'm out, car or bike, at least 3 people overtake me in excess of 40mph, while I'm following the 20mph limit - so now even if the limit had been kept at 30, they're speeding compared to that limit.
• The vast majority of 20mph signage has been vandalised, probably making any speeding prosecutions be a little challenging in court ("I wasn't aware the limit had changed there, and the signage wasn't clear, ma'lord").
• Lots of people are now choosing to do 40mph, when the limit allows up to 60mph.
• Lots of people are observed looking at their lap... which either implies that they need to see a doctor, or that they're looking at their phone (and how safe are those pedestrians and cyclists now that more people are looking at their phones?)
• Lots of people will now pull out in front of you at a junction, presumably just because they want to go sit behind the car in front of you, instead of you.
• Thanks to everyone being so bunched together, everywhere, it's virtually impossible to overtake anyone. Anywhere. Without forcing your way back into traffic.

So yeah, things are "fun" here in Wales at the moment.

The UK Prime Minister has gone on record saying words to the effect of "nope, we're not doing that in England." So I give them until the end of the year before they do. They're already planning trials on the Wirral.

 

[STFlips]

Oh it's all over the news here in the colonies

 

[ad.hom]

"Coming to a colony near you, soon!"

 

[ReSTored]

We have the same type of reductions around Toronto. 90% of pedestrians hit at 30 kph (about 20 mph) live vs. just 20% at 50 kph (about 31 mph)

Thing is, very few people abide by the new, lower limits, so reductions in deaths not as large as expected. Great in theory, but actual practice not the same.

 

[ad.hom]

Absolutely no argument about the reduction in injuries, if a pedestrian is impacted. I also agree with the fact that you're more likely to find pedestrians in towns/villages/near schools, etc. Most of those already had 30mph limits, with schools etc already having 20mph limits.

By and large, the existing, limited scope, 20mph limits at places of increased risk, people have always stuck to (there's the occasional idiot all over the world).

But anyone that takes a moment to review the KSI statistics for Wales, would see that approx 63% of KSI's happened in NSL areas. Those areas aren't changing, so if you genuinely want to improve KSI statistics, the question has to be "What are we doing in NSLs?" The answer... is nothing. Of those KSIs in Wales, I think 23% of them were motorcycles, and of those motorcycles, I think somewhere north of 75% were single vehicle/rider error.

But hey, who needs statistics, just drive slower, the government tell us! Everything will be better! You can walk or cycle to work, and it's safer! Even if it is 30miles, and normally raining.

 

[Bikeric]

OK, so I've been on hiatus a while, just busy with life, it's not that I don't love you lot... and I'm not promising how much I might be around. But something has happened that - at least the US gang might find mildly interesting / amusing, and I did a search, no-one has talked about it yet. So I figured I'd share.

The headline: As of Sept 17th 2023, the Welsh government decided that the default speed limit on all roads, would be 20mph, unless there's an exception applied.

Immediately, "everyone" (well, everyone that listens to mainstream media) was up in arms... "why are we dropping 60mph country roads to 20mph? The country will grind to a halt!" They decried. Of course, the devil is in the details, and the headline lacks detail.

So, the details. What they've actually done, is change everywhere that was a 30mph limit, to a 20mph limit. Some of the signs have moved around a bit, sometimes you'll be in a 20, then it opens to a 30, then up to NSL. Sometimes you'll go from NSL direct to 20mph, and a couple of hundred meters later, back to NSL again. That obviously cost more than the amount of change down the back of the Welsh sofa to enact, changing signage, painting roads, etc etc. About a week after the changes, the main bus company announced they've had to pay drivers £400,000 in overtime, because all the bus schedules are now messed up, and drivers have to work overtime to get the busses back to the depot.

Now then, why have they done this? The claim, is that it makes pedestrians and cyclists safer. Nothing to do with climate change this time. The statistics over time will be interesting to watch.

Meanwhile, it's also come to light that during the small local trials of this, the people in the trial area raised issues, and were ignored. We're now at a point where a petition of around half a million people (in a country of about 3million) asking for the law to be repealed.

So far, the anecdotal evidence from me driving around (car or bike) about the effect of the change:

• Probably thanks to the concertina effect of going from a 60mph area directly to a 20mph area, late braking leads to a LOT of vehicles tail gaiting. Most (not a scientific measurement) vehicles I see are now having gaps between vehicles measured in inches. Then because of the "frustration" they all accelerate at the same time and stay glued together when they're back in the NSL areas.
• Every time I'm out, car or bike, at least 3 people overtake me in excess of 40mph, while I'm following the 20mph limit - so now even if the limit had been kept at 30, they're speeding compared to that limit.
• The vast majority of 20mph signage has been vandalised, probably making any speeding prosecutions be a little challenging in court ("I wasn't aware the limit had changed there, and the signage wasn't clear, ma'lord").
• Lots of people are now choosing to do 40mph, when the limit allows up to 60mph.
• Lots of people are observed looking at their lap... which either implies that they need to see a doctor, or that they're looking at their phone (and how safe are those pedestrians and cyclists now that more people are looking at their phones?)
• Lots of people will now pull out in front of you at a junction, presumably just because they want to go sit behind the car in front of you, instead of you.
• Thanks to everyone being so bunched together, everywhere, it's virtually impossible to overtake anyone. Anywhere. Without forcing your way back into traffic.

So yeah, things are "fun" here in Wales at the moment.

The UK Prime Minister has gone on record saying words to the effect of "nope, we're not doing that in England." So I give them until the end of the year before they do. They're already planning trials on the Wirral.

Penance has been 20mph for nearly 2 years - their "explanation" is that it will cut down on pollution. They have put humps in the promenade and large traffic calming flower boxes at the side of the road. Apart from now using 1st and 2nd gear, using more revs and using MORE fuel causing MORE pollution, plus busses belching out diesel fumes as they have to nearly stop to get over the humps, so if you are following on a motorcycle, you get a blast of diesel fumes in your face, the flower boxes provide cover for children to dash into the road. It's ony a matter of time before a kiddie is run over and that will be on their conscience. Cars have been banned from our main shopping street between 11.00-4.00, so disabled and the elderly have a limited time now to shop. No wonder there are so many empty shops in the town....... Sadly, not all of us are capable of cycling or walking everywhere so are we are being discriminated against?

 

[Sadlsor]

In my typical, anti-authoritarianism philosophy, I have one word to say about this:
Sheesh...

 

[ad.hom]

Oh, apologies, I forgot another fun fact of all this.

Now, it is entirely possible that you can be going downhill, obeying the 20mph speed limit... and be overtaken by a cyclist doing 30mph or more.

Additionally, it is not possible under UK law to charge a cyclist with the offence of "speeding" - because that area of law specifically requires that an engine propel the vehicle, rather than a person.

 

[ReSTored]

Penance has been 20mph for nearly 2 years - their "explanation" is that it will cut down on pollution. They have put humps in the promenade and large traffic calming flower boxes at the side of the road. Apart from now using 1st and 2nd gear, using more revs and using MORE fuel causing MORE pollution, plus busses belching out diesel fumes as they have to nearly stop to get over the humps, so if you are following on a motorcycle, you get a blast of diesel fumes in your face, the flower boxes provide cover for children to dash into the road. It's ony a matter of time before a kiddie is run over and that will be on their conscience. Cars have been banned from our main shopping street between 11.00-4.00, so disabled and the elderly have a limited time now to shop. No wonder there are so many empty shops in the town....... Sadly, not all of us are capable of cycling or walking everywhere so are we are being discriminated against?

Well................ good to see you're fully accepting all of these changes, no doubt the government knows best.

Personally, calming flower boxes at the side of the road enrages me........... If I want to see flowers I'll go to a garden, I don't want these damn things slowing me down on the road!

 

[SMSW]

Earlier this year, the mayor of Cleveland Heights lowered the speed limit from 35 mph on three of the larger thoroughfares to 25 where there is residential housing. He sent out a letter explaining that the survivability of a pedestrian hit by a car going 20 mph is some large multiple of same pedestrian hit by a car doing 30. Now, nobody knows how many pedestrians have been hit by cars on those 3 streets in the last 10 years - but nobody I've spoken to (admittedly, a small sample of friends and neighbors) remembers ANY. I like the fact that he figures that going 25 is slow enough when he quoted 20mph statistics. This was, of course one of those 'executive decisions' and was not enacted by council. The change seems to have been met with a big yawn, and everyone is ignoring the 25mph limit. A lot of people are fed up with this guy for a variety of reasons, and I suspect he is not long for the job.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

A few years ago the town I live in went to 30 Kmh/20Mph throughout the entire town. It is absurdly slow and in my opinion based on observation more dangerous.

Firstly, it is much to slow to demand the driver's full attention, so driving doesn't get people's full attention. Nobody is paying attention to what is happening on the road as a result.

Secondly, no matter where you drive, no matter what time of day, you are ALWAYS being tailgated and pushed from behind because you are moving to slowly. How is that safe? Even if you are being followed by a police car you are being tailgated by them. The police don't even drive this slowly on routine patrol because it is stupid slow.

Thirdly, EVERYONE is frustrated on the roads now, not just the yahoo's. Everyone is frustrated because it takes so long to get anywhere now.

More pedestrians might survive an impact at slower speeds, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find that more pedestrians are getting hit, not fewer.

 

[Bikeric]

Well................ good to see you're fully accepting all of these changes, no doubt the government knows best.

Personally, calming flower boxes at the side of the road enrages me........... If I want to see flowers I'll go to a garden, I don't want these damn things slowing me down on the road!

I'm not accepting them, I'm fighting it as best I can through my MP. Also our Prime Minister is getting anti all the carbon neutral bull....

 

[Upt' North]

Who voted the Welsh government in. I'm guessing the Welsh residents?
Everyone will get a chance to vote them out sometime soon, but I doubt they will.
This is nothing new, Scotland did it years ago, the sun still came up. Yes they can be a PITA but it doesn't spoil my day rides. Short 20 sections aren't an issue, are they safer? Who knows?
Enjoy the derestricted whilst you've got them, it'll soon be like Derbyshire where they're nearly all 50's.
Upt'North. (Where speed limits are reassuringly normal)

 

[ad.hom]

Who voted the Welsh government in. I'm guessing the Welsh residents?

That's debatable. As you know, we don't vote for those in the Senedd.

it'll soon be like Derbyshire where they're nearly all 50's.

Already is. Large areas are 50mph with big yellow average speed cameras.

Re elections, last local one, I had a choice. Choose between the chap who wanted speed camera's in the 30 limit on the section of A494 that is 30mph and the only thing there is driveways (where each house has an indoor swimming pool). Or the local independent, who no matter their policies, wouldn't have the backing to do anything.

That section of the A494 is still 30mph, while a little lower outside the pub is 20mph now.

 

[MerlF]

OK, so I've been on hiatus a while, just busy with life, it's not that I don't love you lot... and I'm not promising how much I might be around. But something has happened that - at least the US gang might find mildly interesting / amusing, and I did a search, no-one has talked about it yet. So I figured I'd share.

The headline: As of Sept 17th 2023, the Welsh government decided that the default speed limit on all roads, would be 20mph, unless there's an exception applied.

Immediately, "everyone" (well, everyone that listens to mainstream media) was up in arms... "why are we dropping 60mph country roads to 20mph? The country will grind to a halt!" They decried. Of course, the devil is in the details, and the headline lacks detail.

So, the details. What they've actually done, is change everywhere that was a 30mph limit, to a 20mph limit. Some of the signs have moved around a bit, sometimes you'll be in a 20, then it opens to a 30, then up to NSL. Sometimes you'll go from NSL direct to 20mph, and a couple of hundred meters later, back to NSL again. That obviously cost more than the amount of change down the back of the Welsh sofa to enact, changing signage, painting roads, etc etc. About a week after the changes, the main bus company announced they've had to pay drivers £400,000 in overtime, because all the bus schedules are now messed up, and drivers have to work overtime to get the busses back to the depot.

Now then, why have they done this? The claim, is that it makes pedestrians and cyclists safer. Nothing to do with climate change this time. The statistics over time will be interesting to watch.

Meanwhile, it's also come to light that during the small local trials of this, the people in the trial area raised issues, and were ignored. We're now at a point where a petition of around half a million people (in a country of about 3million) asking for the law to be repealed.

So far, the anecdotal evidence from me driving around (car or bike) about the effect of the change:

• Probably thanks to the concertina effect of going from a 60mph area directly to a 20mph area, late braking leads to a LOT of vehicles tail gaiting. Most (not a scientific measurement) vehicles I see are now having gaps between vehicles measured in inches. Then because of the "frustration" they all accelerate at the same time and stay glued together when they're back in the NSL areas.
• Every time I'm out, car or bike, at least 3 people overtake me in excess of 40mph, while I'm following the 20mph limit - so now even if the limit had been kept at 30, they're speeding compared to that limit.
• The vast majority of 20mph signage has been vandalised, probably making any speeding prosecutions be a little challenging in court ("I wasn't aware the limit had changed there, and the signage wasn't clear, ma'lord").
• Lots of people are now choosing to do 40mph, when the limit allows up to 60mph.
• Lots of people are observed looking at their lap... which either implies that they need to see a doctor, or that they're looking at their phone (and how safe are those pedestrians and cyclists now that more people are looking at their phones?)
• Lots of people will now pull out in front of you at a junction, presumably just because they want to go sit behind the car in front of you, instead of you.
• Thanks to everyone being so bunched together, everywhere, it's virtually impossible to overtake anyone. Anywhere. Without forcing your way back into traffic.

So yeah, things are "fun" here in Wales at the moment.

The UK Prime Minister has gone on record saying words to the effect of "nope, we're not doing that in England." So I give them until the end of the year before they do. They're already planning trials on the Wirral.

 

[Upt' North]

Excuse my ignorance in Welsh politics, I have to admit it's not an area which concerns me greatly. But don't Welsh residents have constituency and regional votes in Senedd elections? So you vote for a representative for your local area and these elected representatives are sent to the Senedd? Presumably to fight the corner of the people that voted them in, maybe, probably not, but again, someone voted for them.
The regional vote will also send elected representatives to the Senedd. Again these represent the views of the regions. There's probably some sort of proportional representation thrown in somewhere too. It's the modern way.
This Senedd then passes laws on behalf of the persons who elected them, don't they?
Next time round, if this is a real issue that people feel strongly about, the existing Senedd will be voted out and replaced by the next bunch of politicians promising to represent their communities.
For what it's worth with an election looming in the next twelve months English laws are unlikely to be changed for a while yet, will It happen? Who knows. It isn't long since we were told we'd be able to do 80 on the motorway, I'm still awaiting, although ironically we all seem to do 90.
C'est la Vie.
Ray.

 

[Upt' North]

 

[ReSTored]

I'm not accepting them, I'm fighting it as best I can through my MP. Also our Prime Minister is getting anti all the carbon neutral bull....

Well, give them hell. If your MP is as responsive and effective as mine is ................... then good luck. MP's typically toe the party line and have vitually zero individual discretion on how they vote. One wrong move and they get thrown out of caucus.

And remember, you can always tell a Welshman, but you can't tell him very much.

 

[Oldbikefixr]

A few years ago the town I live in went to 30 Kmh/20Mph throughout the entire town. It is absurdly slow and in my opinion based on observation more dangerous.

Firstly, it is much to slow to demand the driver's full attention, so driving doesn't get people's full attention. Nobody is paying attention to what is happening on the road as a result.

Secondly, no matter where you drive, no matter what time of day, you are ALWAYS being tailgated and pushed from behind because you are moving to slowly. How is that safe? Even if you are being followed by a police car you are being tailgated by them. The police don't even drive this slowly on routine patrol because it is stupid slow.

Thirdly, EVERYONE is frustrated on the roads now, not just the yahoo's. Everyone is frustrated because it takes so long to get anywhere now.

More pedestrians might survive an impact at slower speeds, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find that more pedestrians are getting hit, not fewer.

This is why there are so many idiots walking across the roadways. The stupid are no longer learning due to misadventure. Same intellect that will look down the barrel of their rifle, to see if it's loaded....I have seen that one, guy even had his thumb on the trigger of the rifle. Cater to them and they multiply. All part of one of our negative trends in self preservation 'Daddy, do it for me'.

 

[jfheath]

I don't mind the 20mph restriction in villages and towns so much.

The speed limit for anywhere with street lighting has been 30 mph in the uk for decades. It used to specify a distance between lamp posts (50m ? ) but it doesn't now. If there were no repeater speed limit signs indicating otherwise, then 30 was the limit.

We'll have to get used to reminding ourselves that the default speed limit in Wales is now 20mph. It was so obvious during the Covid lockdowns, that the respective governments were going out of their way to do things slightly differently from each other. Different restrictions, different timing, different advice, closing borders. Not that I blame them - we had Boris at the helm after all.

The same result could have been achieved simply by putting 20mph repeater signs, as they have done in many villages. As they have done in Scotland. No fuss, just new signs.

There can't be many better ways for a nation to identify itself than to do something like this. Drivers will be making a mental note as they cross the border. Speed limit for streets with lamp posts is now 20mph. Wales is a different country.


I just wonder if this is what is really behind the way that this was done.

I would be more impressed if they properly enforced the current speed limits.

From the new highway code: