Poor acceleration - bad Honda dealer - need help!

Pulverja

Hey Guys,

I just bought my '92 ST1100 from a friend who had it stored for several years. He stored it correctly, and I pulled all required maintenance before even starting it:

1. changed ALL the fluids (all honda oem)
2. plugs (denso iridium - have 'em on my VF750C Magna - runs great)
3. battery
4. air filter (bought k&n for reusibility only)
5. drained and refilled tank with fresh gas
6. gas filter

It runs well, and is a pleasure to ride, EXCEPT:

Under 1/2 (maybe 3/4) to Full throttle in almost any gear at any speed, there is massive engine hesistation (dare I say "bog-down"), and it can't get out of it's own way.

Things I'm noticing:

The problem doesn't occur in 1st gear, and doesn't happen if the rpm's are already over 6k. Also, the choke doesn't work...won't idle up to warm-up rpm, and it's easier to just hold the throttle 1/4 open for a few seconds until it smooths out.

Anyway, I dropped it off at my local Honda dealership asking them for a complete carb service (disassemble, cleaning, reassemble, adjust, sync, etc), told 'em to adjust/fix the choke, and they said that'll be $240 we'll have it for you in a couple days.

Well they called today, said they "figured out my problem, that the ST1100's don't like K&N filters, it's messing up the carburation, and my new plugs are fouled. Put OEM honda air filter and NGK plugs in and it'll be fine."

WHAT?!?!?! More airflow is fouling my plugs. You need to modify the airbox to create that kind-of problem, no? I just figured it was in storage for several years, clean/adjust/resync the carbs and we'll be good (done it before with other bikes). AND, they want $65 for that wonderful diagnosis.

First, what could my problem be? Second, how would you handle this Honda service department?

The forecast for the weekend is gorgous, so any help quickly would be greatly appreciated.

THANKS A BUNCH!!
Jim
Syracuse, NY
 
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Jim,

I'm going to be guessing...

The quality of storage wasn't quite what you friend thought...

I suspect you're correct your carburation system is dirty.
Changing your K&N out is a hoot... adding air will Lean out not clog plugs.
If they are going to actually pull the carbs ask for them to install new jets they are not that expensive and if they are the problem you'll be back in business.

If they have *declared success* and you already have the bike back I would pour a bottle of Chevron Techroline into a full tank (actually follow the directions on how much to add!) and ride the jets clean.

The other option is to run a couple of tanks of Chevron with Techroline through it... this will also clean the carburation system; but, it will take longer....

Good luck,
Mark
 
Thanks, Mark!

Funny thing is that I didn't ask for a diagnosis, I cleared them to do a carb service and ok'd the price. :confused:

Gonna give the service mgr a chance to make good. I'll suggest he install an OEM Honda air filter, OEM NGK plugs, and let their svc dept install 'em. If the problem still exists, then they can keep the Honda air filter at no charge to me, do the carb service I initially ordered, and discount it by the $60 diagnosis charge.

Else, they can give me my bike with no charge, so I can take it someplace else.

Does that sound fair?

-----------------------------------
UPDATE

Oops, sorry Paul, you replied while I was writing.

I don't mind paying $450 to have the bike running perfect.

Maybe I should just ask to forget the bogus diagnosis and take the bike home, or to a better shop?

Thanks, guys!
 
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Good catch Paul, I didn't note the price aspect.
I suspect that $440 will not be the total if you allow them to do the work...
On a '92 they'll be doing a bunch of replacing and when done you'll STill be dissatisfied by what you got, for what you paid...
They don't call them $Tealters for nothing!

If you can't do the work you might try to ride it clean... it may work.. or not
But, if you're a wrench you should plan on doing Paul's suggested all day job this winter... (I understand that in Winter some poor folks have to park their machines... :) )
 
Hi Pulverja. One thing I should mention here, having experience on my FZ1, a K&N filter gives better flow when new and clean but it can get worse as the oil in it collects particles. So it may be a "lifetime filter" but requires regular maintenance to ensure it stays really clean and that you get the benefits. Otherwise dont use one. Certainly on my FZ1 where I have modded carbs with new jets etc. it is recommended that you DONT use K&N. :03biker:
 
I spoke with the new svc manager in person. He said that they treat all customers as if they don't know anything about their bikes, and offer the cheapest solutions 1st. Makes sense, but made me crazy. :D

So, I asked them to just do the carb service and they said no problem. COMPLETE tear-down, clean, adjustment, and reassemble with will be closer to $350. They apologized for the confusion and are not charging me the hour for "diagnosis" pre-disassembly. Sweet!

I'll let you guys know how it runs afterward, and if the K&N vs. Stock air filter makes any difference in operation. Thanks again!
 
Pulverja said:
I spoke with the new svc manager in person. He said that they treat all customers as if they don't know anything about their bikes, and offer the cheapest solutions 1st. Makes sense, but made me crazy. :D

So, I asked them to just do the carb service and they said no problem. COMPLETE tear-down, clean, adjustment, and reassemble with will be closer to $350. They apologized for the confusion and are not charging me the hour for "diagnosis" pre-disassembly. Sweet!

I'll let you guys know how it runs afterward, and if the K&N vs. Stock air filter makes any difference in operation. Thanks again!
Click to expand...

I hate being taken for an idiot... oh wait... :)

Good luck,
Mark
 
Paul said:
If the diaphragms are cracked you better be sitting when you hear the price for them. These carbs are 14 years old I be surprised to hear they don't need at the minimum the rubber parts kit.
Click to expand...

Paul, I am running a 1986 Shadow with 20k miles on it. When I bought the bike 7 years ago it had 5k on it. I took the carbs apart to clean them (the bike sat up for 10 years) the Diaphragms were still plyable and not cracked. Bike runs good and gets about 40 miles to a gallion and runs like hell. I was suprised also. Cosmeticly the bike was great but the lower fuel tank had to be boiled and coated. The fuel sending unit hat to be replaced and of course carb cleanning. Upper tank was not to bad. Honda made good machines in the 80s.:03biker:
 
Jim: Some will disagree with this, but IMHO the ST1100 *is* noted for not liking K&N filters. Its not because of something to do with K&N, its because the ST1100 runs very lean to start with. Doing anything which enhances airflow (K&N, holes in the airbox, opening exhaust) will create a lean situation, unless you have already taken other steps to increase fuel (mixture, etc). There have been numerous conversations here, about installing and later removing K&N, because performance actually decreased.

The difference is not normally as great as you are describing, so I suspect you do need your carbs cleaned, but the advice you were given is not wrong, and would be the least cost next step. If the OEM filter gets you to where the machine is useable, running a few tanks of fuel through with a good carb cleaner fuel additive, might cure the problem.

I do think you'll still end up cleaning the carbs, but I often get amused when the first reaction of all the experts is that the dealer is staffed with idiots.
 
You have just discribed exactly what happened to my bike when I put the K+N filter in. (my old 96 st1100). It started happening a couple of weeks after I installed it. I done all the things you are talking about, stripped carbs etc, and no joy. As a last resort I put a OEM filter back in, and ....bike was perfect. Just for pig iron, i put the k+n back in and the problem was there again. So save yourself a lot of messing, and try an OEM filter, theyre not expensive, and at least you will know for sure weather its the filter or not.
 
Everyone, thanks again for all of your help and advice. I really appreciate it. :banr1:

The shop called me back yesterday, and they said my carbs were varnished, the main jets did have some junk in 'em, and my brand new fuel filter was dirty after 350 miles. With the new info, I told them before ruining the nice carb job, to flush the tank, put another new fuel filter in, new plugs, and an oem air filter.

I'll save the K&N for eBay and clean up the 2 week old plugs for spares :sparkplu: , but hopefully she'll run like a champ when I pick it up. I'll let you know! :yes:
 
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K&N Filter is good!

I finally figured out the problem today, and maybe it will settle things with everyone who's had problems with K&N filters...maybe not.

I picked up the bike today, they did the carb service (which I'm sure it needed), but the bike still ran like crap. They gave me a stock Honda air filter to try out.

After work I open the airbox for the 1st time ever on this bike (dealer ordered and installed the K&N) to find that the K&N filter was installed with a foam wrap dust prefilter! This 1/2" thick foam prefilter was filling the airbox and covering the inlet holes on the bottom!

I simply pulled the prefilter off, reassembled everything, and now the bike runs like a bat outta hell! LOVE IT! So, I'll return the Honda air filter and tell the service department tomorrow. Surprised they didn't notice the foam filter wrap and notice it was plugging the airbox inlet.

Case solved. Thanks for allowing me to rant and for all of the advice and feedback. I will create a post for everyone to see regarding K&N air filters.

-Jim
Ecstatic ST1100 owner! :D
 
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