Power Commander on 03 : Untuned results.

[DeSTy]

I recently purchased a 2nd-hand power commander from a member of this forum, to fit to my 03.

Having performed the required installation surgery on Saturday afternoon, I was eager to get out yesterday and see the results. After I fitted the unit, I took the bike for a quick squirt locally and noticed a sharp increase in mid-range grunt, but being in an urban area, didn't really want to get too carried away, so I took the bike home and waited for our weekly ride yesterday.

The PCIII came with a map that was setup for a 03 ST1300, stock A/F and 2Bros pipes. My bike currently has a K&N and stock pipes... the 2 bros M5's are on their way. A number of ST1300 maps still reside on the PCIII CD even though the ST1300 unit is no longer supported or sold by Dynojet.

Prior to installation, I powered the PCIII up on my desk while connected to the computer and checked the map and accel pump settings.

Yesterday, I took the bike out with 6 friends and covered about 400 miles of varied country from tight mountain twisties to long open-plain sweepers and noticed a few things...

The bike has MUCH more mid-range grunt... I mean it is a beast, it's not a simple case of a little more power or smoothed out the torque curve, dropping back to 4th and twisting the throttle at about 90mph results in the bike leaping forward so hard that it tries to tear you off the seat. The gap between 50mph and 120mph just got very, very, short.

Now the bad... it uses fuel at an astonishing rate. Where I would normally get home with about 1/4 tank left, yesterday I got home and was showing 30kmh left in the tank, so fuel usage is up about 25%!.

Also, and this is probably not a downside but a tuning issue, twice it hesitated when accelerating from a standstill at low revs. I managed to be able to reproduce this and believe it's a function of the accel pump. If I blip the throttle and then immediately attempt to drive off, it will falter for a brief moment before catching and running normally.

Once the slip-ons turn up and I fit them, it's off to the dyno to get it tuned properly. I may also invest in the map switch available from dynojet so I can switch between a 0-map (stock) and performance maps, thus having a little more control over the fuel usage!.

 

[Rob Hephner]

Good luck with that....you might want to take a look at your plugs....

I can tell you where that extra fuel is going, but I am sure you will figure it our eventually.

 

[DeSTy]

Ummmm... lemme see, it's being injected into the inlet tract at a higher rate thus resulting in more mid-range power?, unlike your ST that is wheezing from ultra-lean californian emissions standards?


Oh wait, lets pretend for a moment that I'm not a mechanic and don't work for a Honda dealer... now, tell me where it's going?

 

[Rob Hephner]

Ummmm... lemme see, it's being injected into the inlet tract at a higher rate thus resulting in more mid-range power?, unlike your ST that is wheezing from ultra-lean californian emissions standards?


Oh wait, lets pretend for a moment that I'm not a mechanic and don't work for a Honda dealer... now, tell me where it's going?

I don't have a California emissions bike and I don't have an ultra-lean situation either.

Pull your plugs, take a photo and post them up....

BTW, being a mechanic for a Honda dealer isn't gonna get you very far. I've known plenty of mechanics that don't know squat.

Seat of the pants proves NOTHING, post up some dyno charts with before and after results, verifies by a 3rd party.

If you really want to educate us, why don't you start by explaining how the Power Commander can work on a '03 ST....heck explain it to DynoJet, since they can't seem to be able to do it....

 

[DeSTy]

Actually, the Power commander works perfectly on an 03 or *any* non-abs ST1300. Dynojet pulled them because people were trying to fit them to 04 and later ABS bikes and having issues with them.

Because I can swap maps in the PCIII at will, I can do timed acceleration test and verify that there is a large difference between stock and mapped performance.

Once I have the exhausts changed I'll have the machine dyno-tuned and will post the charts.

BTW, being a mechanic for a Honda dealer isn't gonna get you very far. I've known plenty of mechanics that don't know squat.

Possibly true, but as I'm not one of the mechanics that you know, your comment has no bearing on me whatsoever.

I'm not quite sure what your fascination with the spark-plugs is??? I'm guessing you're expecting them to be all black and sooty so you can feel vindicated??? Considering I've already stated that the bike and ECU are un-tuned, I'd be a little surprised if they weren't, but it hardly proves that the power commander doesn't work, indeed, it would appear to prove that it does work and is supplying extra fuel to the engine despite your statements to the contrary.

 

[Blrfl]

I don't have a California emissions bike...

Actually, they're all California bikes unless the fuel or exhaust systems have been modified, in which case they're not even Federal.

And by the way: :coolit:

--Mark

 

[Deleted member 5682]

Y'all play nice...

 

[deanrd]

Doesn't appear as if you've driven it far enough to establish a baseline for mileage. You took it on one trip, bashed the bejeezers out of the throttle and then say its 25% worse. When I do a trackday my mileage suxs. Jeez, I wonder why!

As Rob said, if you'd take the time to check the plugs and see if they were starting to foul, you might have a lead on one of your problems.

If the bike isn't configured as required by the manufacturer, then you won't get the desired results.

My .02.

 

[gregj]

I've had experience with the PCIII on my VTX, and the acel pump is useless, except for wasting fuel. Suggest you disable it.

 

[Ken]

I would humbly submit that with the extensive history about PC III's on this forum (and Rob certainly has a lot of history here) that pessimism is natural. The manufacturer has been unwilling or unable to explain the nature of the beast in their hastily launched model for the 03 ST13 and then just as quickly discontinued it. And our own experts have repeatedly mentioned that PC III's on a closed loop fuel system is a futile attempt at increased performance. There is no sense in escalating this debate -- it's been covered many times before. Until/unless DeSTy takes it for a Dyno run, anything else is pure speculation and not worth hard feelings.

Now, go ride ya'll!

 

[adamk]

Actually, the Power commander works perfectly on an 03 or *any* non-abs ST1300.

Where did you get your info regarding non-abs bikes after '03 work with the PC?? I'm the one who notified Dynojet of this problem initially. They flew two people up here to Seattle and had my bike on a dyno all day long <trying> to figure out what was going on. The dealer we did the work at let me pull the ECU from a new bike on the showroom floor in an attempt to see if that would fix the issue. That bike was a non-abs model and the problem was still there.

I wasn't very impressed seeing these guys pull multiple PC's apart trying to fix the problem. There seems to be <something> going on in the ST ECU's after '03 that they just can't explain. While their PC's do work on many bikes, it was apparent newer ST's isn't one of them. The PC's were designed to intercept, modify, and then resend the ECU signals without much real understanding of what is really going on the the stock ECU. Works for most bikes, but as ECU's become more complex Dynojet is messing with hardware and software they really don't understand. The results can be extremely dangerous as is the case with ANY ST after the '03 model year.

To make matters even worse, the people I dealt with at Dynojet were extremely arrogant. This is a common opinion I've heard from other manufacturers that have had to deal with them.

You can read all about my experience here:

http://koczarski.com/Motorcycles/ST1300/PowerCommander/PowerCommander.htm

 

[Blrfl]

Both versions of the '04 use the same ECU, 38770-MCS-L01, so I'd have doubts that ABS makes a difference unless replacements have to be flashed at the dealer for each model. The same part number is listed for the '03s in the current parts fiche.

My money would be on Honda or Keihin having made a firmware change in 2004 that defeats the PC (intentionally or not) and the revised ECU becoming the standard replacement for the '03.

--Mark

 

[adamk]

If I remember corectly, Honda has never changed the part number for the ECU in any of the model years. They <obviously> changed <something> internal to them though......

 

[wjbertrand]

Just a caution here. If indeed the PC is making the bike run too rich, one could overheat the catalysts as they try to digest too much raw fuel. I've seen catalyst equipped cars make their exhaust systems glow red hot when too much fuel reaches the catalysts.

Since you plan to replace the exhausts with aftermarket not equipped with cats, that problem should go away and one might not care about ruining the OEM cats. The radiant heat though could certainly cause some peripheral damage.

 

[Rob Hephner]

More than likely the extra fuel is going out the tailpipe in liquid form. A look at the plugs would be a start.

I honestly do not understand why Honda still uses dedicated ECM's instead of black boxes that are flashed at the dealer level. It would not only be more economical, but a better logistical deal for the entire company.

 

[Blrfl]

I honestly do not understand why Honda still uses dedicated ECM's instead of black boxes that are flashed at the dealer level.

Because the ST1300 is perfect from the factory. Didn't you know that?

Have you seen the spiffy USB-based data logger on the Ducati 1098 yet?

--Mark

 

[DeSTy]

Just a caution here. If indeed the PC is making the bike run too rich, one could overheat the catalysts as they try to digest too much raw fuel. I've seen catalyst equipped cars make their exhaust systems glow red hot when too much fuel reaches the catalysts.

Yes, I did put a O? sensor in the exhaust while I was playing around with the maps yesterday. About the highest I could get the fuel content up to without a full load test ie: stabbing the throttle hard, was about 11.5:1; this was with the fuel pump enabled, running at 15% fuel increase for 6 engine revolutions.

Since you plan to replace the exhausts with aftermarket not equipped with cats, that problem should go away and one might not care about ruining the OEM cats. The radiant heat though could certainly cause some peripheral damage.

Cat converters aside, a rich mixture causes a cool burn, so radiant heat should have decreased. I don't have a small enough meter equipped with a thermocouple to be able to measure the exhaust temp while riding.

I also plan to dyno the bike with and without O? eliminators in place, just to see if the stock ECU is playing a big part in limiting the usable range of the PCIII. I have noticed that the FCD on the bike is showing very low fuel consumption figures and I assume this is because the ECU is bumping back the injector pulse width while it's seeing a rich mixture on the O? sensors.

 

[Rob Hephner]

Have you seen the spiffy USB-based data logger on the Ducati 1098 yet?

Yes, I have! I mean even Buell has this capability...not USB, but data tracking.

I remember when the Japanese were ahead of everyone else...

 

[Rob Hephner]

So, any results here?

 

[DeSTy]

Not yet, waiting for the Two Bros to arrive from the US, then the $$$ for the Dynotune.

In the meantime, I've changed back to a "stock AF, Stock mufflers" map which has reduced the fuel consumption and kept a fair bit of the gained power.