Putting An ABSII Front End On A Standard ST1100

[kiltman]

Look at post 35 the last line.

 

[Uncle Phil]

Look at post 35 the last line.

That's why I deleted my post about the seals …
Front calipers are rebuilt and hopefully tomorrow I'll fit the new pads.
Then I will install the calipers and sort out the plumbing for the front.

 

[Uncle Phil]

Still 'sorting' out the front plumbing. I'm trying to use 'existing' Honda hoses from my 'collection'. I've got the master cylinder and the main 'pots' sorted but still noodling on how to hook up the 'extra' pistons from the linked brakes. What makes it interesting is you have to be sure that the new 'hose arrangements' will fit under gray garnish attached to the front fender. At this point I can run a hose from each caliper to the master cylinder T-junction. But I would like to use the metal hose to connect the two calipers and then run one hose up to the master cylinder. The problem is the hose setup that works for the 'regular' pistons (I have an extra set) are just a little too short to work (about 1/2"). If I just had a hose stretcher ….

 

[ST Gui]

If I just had a hose stretcher ….

That's what she said! (just not about me!)

 

[Uncle Phil]

Finally got the front plumbed using all ST1100 hoses, lines, fittings and brackets with 1 aftermarket 3-way t connection.
Trying to bleed the front system now but a completely 'empty' system has a lot of air.
Cracked the banjo bolt at the master cylinder to get the air out of there, but it's going incredibly slow with pro-motion speed bleeders.
There are 4 nipples (two per side) and I have 4 speed bleeders (the ones with the hoses).
Any ideas to speed up the process?
Should I do one side at a time, 1 nipple at a time, or all 4 at a time?

 

[Larry Fine]

Bottom to top. I think of it as "installing" the fluid.

 

[sirbike]

On my last bleed I filled the master cylinder through the hose end pointed first. Pumped it, filled more. Then filled the top. Maybe it was just luck but that was about the fastest bleed I’ve done from starting with a dry master cylinder. Seemed like I was pumping fluid quicker, rather than a pesky air bubble. In fact for all the extra line and cylinder that you are filling I’d suggest making sure you have solid pressure coming out of the master first.
Pushing the fluid up if you have the tool for that would be ideal.
If not, I would focus on the outer pistons first since the bottom ones are the lowest point in the system. Still basically take turns all around.
Do you have any up hill runs in your lines. You may want to take that into account. For instance hold a caliper in a position to keep a down hill run.
Now it could be that when you get all the air out of the system that the lever is going to feel squishy like there is air in the line.
I predict that this is what will happen to some degree. The difference will be that the lever will not pump up the way it does when there is air in there. It will just travel farther toward the handlebar all the time.

 

[sirbike]

One at a time taking turns

 

[Uncle Phil]

The 'grand junction' is at the bottom of the triple tree fastened to the lower fairing stay 'prop' bolt. The 'hookups' are the normal ABSII hookups (hose and metal connector pipe) for each caliper connection. I'm getting some fluid out of all of the bleeders but still a lot of air (tiny bubbles like the fizz on a Coke) and no resistance on the lever. I'll try the open/close method with the 'longest hose' bleeder and see what happens. Probably just going to be a bazillion more squeezes of the lever.

 

[Slydynbye]

The 'grand junction' is at the bottom of the triple tree fastened to the lower fairing stay 'prop' bolt. The 'hookups' are the normal ABSII hookups (hose and metal connector pipe) for each caliper connection. I'm getting some fluid out of all of the bleeders but still a lot of air (tiny bubbles like the fizz on a Coke) and no resistance on the lever. I'll try the open/close method with the 'longest hose' bleeder and see what happens. Probably just going to be a bazillion more squeezes of the lever.

It can be hard to get fluid everywhere it needs to be without bubbles.
If you have compressed air, get a Pneumatic brake bleeder (pretty inexpensive) Buy the cheapest possible since they all do the same thing.

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Buy 8MILELKAE Pneumatic Brake Fluid Bleeder Tool Kit Air Brake Bleeder: Wheel Cylinder Bleeder Screws - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

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[Uncle Phil]

Calling all 'bleeding' experts! I have a few questions -

1. How far should the bleeding nipple be open - a quarter of a turn (trying to avoid sucking air through the threads)?
2. With the 'speed bleeders' - one-way valve with clear hoses on each end, should it be solid fluid all the way to the valve or just as long as it is solid coming out of the nipple?

I have some brakes (spin the front wheel and it stops) pretty quick with very little travel of the brake lever.
But I don't get the amount of 'lever resistance' that I do on my other ST1100s, making me think I still have air.
I can pull the lever all the way to the grip pretty easily.
What say ye?

 

[Larry Fine]

Have you tried a bottom-to-top method? Maybe tap all over the lines like you're playing Wipeout to loosen bubbles?

Please don't be insulted: As for regular bleeding, you squeeze the lever, open the nipple just enough that the lever hits the bar, don't let go, close the nipple, then let go, pump it up a few strokes, repeat until there are no bubbles, move to next nipple.

If you do his everywhere, and still don't get a hard lever, then you've got a captured air pocket somewhere, which would take back to the top of this post.

 

[Mark]

Sounds like you still have air in them, somewhere...

 

[OhioDeere]

Here's my method for all the bikes I've owned and done. "The Ole Rubber Mallet Trick". Works every time for me. Gives me solid brake levers.
I just have a basic hand pump vacuum bleeder.
- you must follow the sequence that is stated in the manual. this insures you systematically remove the air along the hydraulic route.
- I remove the factory bleeders on the calipers and put teflon tape on the threads to prevent air from coming through the threads of the bleeder. two wraps max of tape ONLY. Reinstall all the bleeders with a light tightness.
- Do not remove and tape the intermediate bleeders as these will be fine. only meant to get rid of major portion of air.
- Using bleeder tool for vacuum, only loosen bleeders enough to draw fluid and tighten each as they are air free.
- Use a rubber mallet to tap on the lines and calipers to break the bubbles free from the side walls while purging under vacuum.
- By now you should have all air out of lines and equipment up to the calipers.
- NOW remove all bleeders and remove teflon tape and reinstall bleeders. All calipers are down hill from reservoir. so no chance to suck air back in system.
- Crack open "barely" and use brake to pump remaining air out of each caliper. usually one stroke of the lever is enough. Making sure to tighten bleeder each time you let off the lever as to not suck air back in.

If you still have "sponge brakes" when done. Re-do the last bleed part while tapping the caliper with mallet while bleeder is open.. some of those bleeders are not drilled in the highest point of the fluid section.

I start off with a good vacuum on the line before I open a bleeder valve also.

I got the rubber mallet trick from a military tech manually to bleed my 6x6 truck.. It has miles of lines with air over hydraulic. works great.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

1. How far should the bleeding nipple be open - a quarter of a turn (trying to avoid sucking air through the threads)?

Quarter turn should be plenty if there are no obstructions.

2. With the 'speed bleeders' - one-way valve with clear hoses on each end, should it be solid fluid all the way to the valve or just as long as it is solid coming out of the nipple?

Assuming that you are pressure bleeding, as opposed to vacuum bleeding, anything downstream of the bleeder nipple doesn't matter, what counts is what is coming out of the bleeder nipple. However, if you have bubbles between the bleeder and the check valve they can only be coming from the brake system as the pressurized brake fluid will force fluid out through the bleeder threads rather than allow air to be sucked in. This assumes that your tubing fits tightly around the bleeder nipple and air is not being drawn in there.

But I don't get the amount of 'lever resistance' ......

Might be an air bubble in the master cylinder. Try bleeding the master cylinder first. Rotate the bars so the banjo fitting on the master cylinder is at the highest point that you can get it. Bleed the master by using the same pressure technique as is used on the caliper bleeders by opening the banjo fitting on the master cylinder when the fluid is under pressure. Once all of the air has been expelled from the master cylinder bleed the brakes again.

 

[sirbike]

By all means above do what is advised to get rid of possible air in the line.
At this point with you getting braking action I recommend this test.
Squeeze the brake lever repeatedly at a quick pace. If you have air in the line the lever will stop further from the handlebar (it will pump up) with each squeeze until it stops at a more normal stopping position.

If there is no air in the line, the lever might stop a little further from the bar on the second squeeze then will stop at the same distance. It won’t pump up. And if this is the case the ratio of master cylinder area to slave cylinder is too far off. The lever has to travel further to push all that extra fluid into the middle pistons that you connected.

So does the lever pump up with each stroke or land in the same place?

 

[Uncle Phil]

I have 'beat' and 'whacked' calipers and lines until my beater and whacker are wore out!
I cracked the banjo at the master cylinder, and all I get is fluid, no apparent air.
The lever does not seem to 'pump up' any noticeable amount.
AFAICT, the front wheel stops quickly with a half squeeze on the lever but you can continue to pull the lever to the grip.
Still going from bleeding nipple to nipple to check for air.
There are a few bubbles in one line but I'm beginning to think it is from opening the nipple too far.
A fact to consider - the center pistons and their chamber are much smaller than the primary outside pistons and their chamber.
Ah, tommorrow is another day, Scarlett!

 

[OhioDeere]

Your getting closer!! To what I don't know.. LOL

 

[dwalby]

OK, forgive me for not reading the previous 70 posts, so this might be a dumb question. I remember you asking about modifying the plumbing for the ABS calipers, and I can't recall if you have an ABS master cylinder or a non-ABS m/c. My question is, do you have the system modified such that your hydraulic ratio is different than whatever the master cylinder was originally designed for??

 

[sirbike]

I have 'beat' and 'whacked' calipers and lines until my beater and whacker are wore out!
I cracked the banjo at the master cylinder, and all I get is fluid, no apparent air.
The lever does not seem to 'pump up' any noticeable amount.
AFAICT, the front wheel stops quickly with a half squeeze on the lever but you can continue to pull the lever to the grip.
Still going from bleeding nipple to nipple to check for air.
There are a few bubbles in one line but I'm beginning to think it is from opening the nipple too far.
A fact to consider - the center pistons and their chamber are much smaller than the primary outside pistons and their chamber.
Ah, tommorrow is another day, Scarlett!

Based on the lever not pumping up, I’d say there is no air. This is the feel of, the amount of lever travel for, pumping 6 pistons instead of 4.