Question for former Wingers

[Rob (from Hoosierville)]

Greetings to all,

It's been about 900 miles since I moved to the ST1300A from a GL1800. Those who have also made the switch will be able to appreciate the very different feel of the respective bikes. As I gradually get more familiar with the ST my comfort level with it increases as you would expect, but I'm having an issue with cornering that some of you may have experienced.

My Wing was very stable in corners, even really tight ones at some pretty good speeds. I suppose the low center of gravity helped as did the Metzeler ME880 tires. It cornered like you were riding on a rail.
The ST by comparison, feels kind of loose sometimes and isn't inspiring the level of confidence I felt with my Wing. I can't pin anything down in particular, but it almost feels like I'm getting some fork flex or the tires are low on air (they're not). It may be that the shorter wheelbase and steeper rake on the ST is contributing to some movement during the turns, or that the OEM tires are not holding the line very well. I guess I've never been that impressed with Dunlops anyway. In any case I seem to go a little wide in turns as a result of the feedback I get from the bike.

Have any of you former Wingers experienced this? Did saddle time take care of the issues as you got used to the differences in the bikes?

Any and all feedback is appreciated.

-Rob

 

[Mellow]

Rob,

It did take me a while to get used to how the ST handles differently from the Wing.

On my '01 GL1800 I never really had to 'lean' when in corners, I'd just sit 'in' the bike, just pick my line and accelerate through.

On the ST it took me a while but I started by looking over the left or right mirrors when in a turn. Then I also started to shift my weight on my left or right butt cheek.. then after a while I'd start moving over to that side of the seat and the turns got faster and more stable.

I'm now back on an '05 GL1800 for those reasons that make a Wing such a great bike but among the things I miss about the ST are the way it handled and I'm sure you will learn to appreciate it in time.

That doesn't mean you might not have a real issue, is the bike new? Check the Bearings.. while the bike in on the centerstand check for any sideways movement in the wheels.

The ST feels so much more lighter than it actually is compared to the GL. I think if you just give it a chance and play with your sitting positions while in a turn, you'll learn to love it.

 

[Marshal_Mercer]

Rob,

<snip>
The ST feels so much more lighter than it actually is compared to the GL. I think if you just give it a chance and play with your sitting positions while in a turn, you'll learn to love it.

You might also wish to check the rear sag-height and shock dampening as per
http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Suspension1.html#AdjustRearSuspension. That may do exactly what you want -- and it's free!

Marshal

 

[Rob (from Hoosierville)]

Thanks for the input guys.

Mellow - The bike is brand new and had 0 miles on it when I picked it up. The bearings seem fine. I understand your statement about sitting "in" the Wing. I felt that way too. The ST is different for me as I feel I'm sitting "On" it rather than "In" it. The bike has a completely different dynamic with respect to handling. Perhaps the different riding position has a bit to do with my perceived "looseness" in corners. Maybe it's partially a mental thing too.

Marshall - I'll take a look at the shock preload and damping settings. I set the preload up a little stiffer than than the setting it came from the dealer with but I've not done anything with the damping yet. At lower speeds the ride is pretty soft and it may need to be stiffened up a bit. I read some other posts that suggested stiffening things up as shown on the calsci.com site would have a major impact on handling "feel".

 

[Rob (from Hoosierville)]

Well I took a look at the damping and it was set REALLY soft. This may have something to do with it. The calsci.com site said that the "factory" position for damping was 1 turn out from a fully seated adjusting screw. They recommended only 1/2 a turn for improved handling. Mine was out 1 3/4 turns. I guess I'll need to go for a little ride now.

2005c6 - I agree, learning to trust the bike and the tires is a big part of this. I got really familiar with my Wing and could ride fairly aggressively through turns (or anywhere for that matter). I guess the first 20,000 miles will build that kind of relationship between a rider and bike. I just need to spend more time in the saddle and get used to the ST. Gosh, more saddle time will be a real burden.

 

[Veefer]

Rob (from Hoosierville)

1) 1970 Honda CT70 - wore it out
2) CollegeWeddingMortgageKid
3) 2002 Honda VT750 - Not for me. Traded Up
4) 2002 Honda GL1800 - Totaled by suicidal wild turkey (really)
5) 2005 Honda ST1300A - Feels like Home

Rob,
Hate to Hijack the thread, but you wouldn't happen to live in or near Elkhart, IN would ya?
If so, you looked at a 2004 ST1300 that belongs to my friend Doug (Fullzootboogie) at North End Cycle.
If you need any assistance with this or other ST things and/or would like to ride with a couple other ST's some time, PM me.

 

[Rob (from Hoosierville)]

Veefer - That's me. Doug met me up at NEC and gave me the rundown on his bike. I'd love to get together for a ride sometime, in fact Doug wanted me to give him a call after the bike was delivered. My life has been pretty crazy for the last few weeks and I've not done that yet. I'll shoot you a PM a little later.

-Rob

 

[Kempo-STer]

Hey Rob...

Crank up the suspension all the way to the stiffest setting and work your way backwards..It did wonders for me..

Yes tires are a factor as well of course...

Best of luck!

Kempo

 

[Rob (from Hoosierville)]

Changing the shock dampener and increasing the preload did a world of good. I went for a quick spin and noticed quite a difference. I could still feel what felt like a little flex in the front end, but it's minor. It could be the tires. I'm looking forward to wearing these out and putting some Metzelers on.

 

[jnsgardner]

Rob,

The consensus seems to be for all of us who don't drag pegs and spark 'Hero Nuts' is a Metzeler Z6 up front and an 880 in back. I've still go plenty of tread left on the OEM Dunlops so I personally haven't tried that combo. I'm looking forward to more face to face input on this issue as well as other stuff at the WeSTOC at San Luis Obispo in Sept.

John

 

[Keith_UK]

Rob - I switched from a GL1500 Wing to a new ST13A at the beginning of this year. I completely understand what you mean about the difference in [apparent] cornering stability between the two machines.

For the first 500 - 1,000 miles on the ST the front end felt really lightweight and flimsy compared to the Wing's solidity. It almost felt like I was loosing the front end when tackling the first 50-100 corners on the ST. For a time I really feared the front tyre ('tire' in US speak) was going to slip away from me - then down I would go, probably really hard, and maybe at speed too.

But now, 3,000 miles later, cornering the ST is a delight - and feels as steady as the Rock of Gibraltar. I put it all down to my mind playing tricks with me. It'll probably get better for you too in a while.

The Wing was a fabulous touring machine; probably the best out there, but it never gave me the thrill and made me smile quite like the ST does now.

KEITH

 

[Putt]

A minor thing, but make sure your front tire pressure is where
it is supposed to be... It could be sidewall flex rather than fork
twist...


Putt...

 

[Carl_T]

You might also want to consider Metz. Z6 front and back when the tire change comes up if you like the twisties. There has been excellent feedback here on that combo also from ST riders.

I've mentioned this before but it's a possible for what's going on and is worth considering when you ride this bike, so I'll mention it again. Especially with the OEM tires, the front STone has a profile that makes for immediate steering from very small bar inputs combined with sporty front end geometry. This can contribute to a number of sensations that seem like the bike but is actually rider inputs.

This can lead to wobble complaints in truck wake wind. Those complaints stem from wind hitting shoulders and causing arms to put in tiny steering inputs the rider is unaware of, creating a wobble (due to the combination of tire profile and bike geometry). The rider consciously bending elbows, lightening grip, removes the buffeting winds ability to transfer shoulder movement to hands, and the wobble disappears and the bike is rock steady in truck wakes. So the bike does not wobble, the rider can make it wobble.

This quick initial steering also can lead to the feeling of the bike falling into turns with riders new to the bike until they get used to the response of the bike to small inputs.

This response of the bike/tire is not bad as it makes for very precise turning abilities that are great to have in turns, but it requires the rider to get used to how the machine works.

Is it possible that coming from the wing you may have a bit more weight on the bars in your turns with the ST? This could cause very small unnoticed steering inputs to be happening which the ST is responding to, making the front end feel unstable. I strongly guess this is possible.

Others and I find the ST rock steady in turns, yet also willing to change lines through steering in the case of emergencies. The ST needs you to have the weight off your hands, body leaning forward some, bent elbows, and loose arms, when turning. I personally like to keep countersteering and other steering inputs confined to the inside hand on bikes for various reasons. That works well with this bike and helps keep weight and unwanted steering input off the bars (since body leaning forward and inside some causes your inside arm to be well enough bent). You can transfer your weight support to your legs and torso using the pegs (even gripping the tank with your knees a bit if need be, though you may not need to use the tank), to help your torso support your weight more easily. This is not as hard as it may sound, forgive me if you already do this, experiment somewhere safe with it if you don?t and see if it helps.

Please check all front end bolts in correct order (there were reports of some being delivered loose from the factory on a few bikes). If this doesn't go away soon as you experiment with un-weighted armed rider input, something may very well be amiss with the bike or tire. The ST when right has a well enough planted front end with the rear suspension sag set right around 1 ?-1 3/8 inch, and the dampening appropriately set correctly for the amount of preload needed.

I have no idea how it may feel compared to a wing however. I just wanted to bring up another possibility.

 

[Putt]

One thing I did notice about the Battleaxes,
Got great milage (10.4K miles and still a lot of
tread left), but..
In anything more than a sweeper, you had to
"drive" the bike around curves, with the
Metzler Z6/ME880, I can now "ride"
the bike instead of driving it through
the turns... YMMV...


Putt...

 

[Rob (from Hoosierville)]

Thanks to all for the continued input. I've come to the conclusion that I'm facing a multi-faceted phenomenon (say that 3 times fast!) where the tires, steering geometry, riders position, suspension, and other fundamental differences between my GL1800 and the ST1300A are adding up. In a nutshell it just felt different and made me uncomfortable. I'm sure a few more miles will build a much better relationship with the ST. It was that way with my Wing. After 5000 miles it handled like it was reading my mind.

Since my suspension tweak I've thrown it into a few curves HARD just to test the feedback I'm getting from the road and with things stiffened up it is much improved. I'm convinced the "flex" I'm feeling is really small deviations from my intended line caused by minor bar inputs. I get a little of the same thing if I'm on the slab and getting buffeted by a truck or crosswinds. I do have a little more weight on the grips than I'd like but the risers I have on order should help. I should be able to hold a cleaner line through the turns as I get more accustomed to the ST.

I did note one observation the other day that gives me encouragement. I went for a spin on one of my favorite two lane twisties in Southwest Michigan and happened to glance at the speedo going through a 35MPH curve that I used to take at 45 with the wing. I was going between 55 and 60 without even realizing it. The perception of speed through curves is just another difference I need to get used to.

No question the Metzelers will help too. When I installed the ME880s on the Wing it was like a whole new bike. I'm not sure if I'll do an ME880 rear and Z6 front or go Z6 both ends. I guess I have something else to obsess over.

 

[Rob (from Hoosierville)]

Greetings to all,

As of this writing I'm in Colorado, and will be heading up to the Black Hills tomorrow. After another 1300 miles of quality time on the new bike, I can say we've finally bonded. I spent an hour or so on some twisty canyon roads southwest of Denver yesterday and all the handling issues are resolved. It just took some getting used to the new STeed. One thing is for sure: The stock seat has got to go!

More when I get back to Hoosierville.......................

 

[SpEd]

Hi Rob,

Was wondering what your impressions of the ST are now that you've had a chance to ride it a little.