RyanF9 learns to ride like a cop!

DannoXYZ said:
Try pushing your bike around garage. Absolutely ZERO countresteering to make it turn. In fact, the more you turn the steering, the more bike turns in that direction. Full-lock gives tightest turning radius in direction steering is aimed...
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When pushing a bike, you have the ability to "artificially" control the lean and the steering individually.

You need to lean the bike toward yourself so you can push it forward without pushing it away from you.

If you're on the left side, and want to turn left, you still need to lean the bike more to the left.

If you let it, counter-steering is still effective even at a walking pace.
 
dduelin said:
The only thing that I can see in that video that might be controversial is that it doesn’t make clear that counterbalancing is necessary only at slow speeds when the maneuvers performed between the cones are at slow speeds where there’s not enough centrifugal force to balance the motorcycle.
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I wonder how many miles you've logged yourself on these same French, Austrian, German, Italian and Swiss passes where @Moto-Charlie is happily using the technique years after years while guiding tours?
 
And here we see the perfect example of WHY we don't go into great detail on countersteering in a BRC class.
We actually first mention "countersteer" in the second half of the range exercises -- AFTER they have already been using it successfully to complete several earlier range exercises.
When they start overanalyzing and thinking too much, we go back to "push left, go left - push right, go right."
In the famous words of the village chieftain's son in The Last Samurai: "Too much mind!"
Carry on, it's time for me to refill my popcorn bucket.
 
Sadlsor said:
And here we see the perfect example of WHY we don't go into great detail on countersteering in a BRC class.
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Now we know. It is all your fault. You never taught it right!

My MSF demonstrated countersteering for evasive maneuvers only.

But as a devoted student of ST-Owners, I attempted countersteering while pushing the ST around ....and dropped it. There must be a course for that somewhere!
 
MidLife said:
But as a devoted student of ST-Owners, I attempted countersteering while pushing the ST around ....and dropped it. There must be a course for that somewhere!
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There is no need for a course on how to drop your ST, so don't waste your money.
Many, many ST owners have been able to successfully drop theirs with absolutely ZERO training or coaching.
Simply follow these steps, in order:
1. Put the ST on the sidestand.
2. Stand beside the ST.
3. While still standing next to the ST, push the ST up enough to raise the sidestand off the ground.
4. Push the sidestand into its retracted position with one foot.
5. Completely let go of the ST, while stepping away quickly.

Alternatively, if your ST is on the centerstand, it's even simpler:
1. Ensure the sidestand is raised.
2. From directly behind the ST, push the tail of the bike so that the centerstand folds up.

Either method will result in a dropped ST.
Congratulations! You've done it!
 
I love the physics of all this, counter steering, counter balancing. That was a great video, I learned a lot and look forward to practicing and using this information. I've read this thread twice because of all the great information, and clicked the links, haven't digested it all yet. I have also read a Twist of the Wrist 2.

On the counter steering, is there another way to steer the bike above (I've read 28mph, 12mph, walking speed) a "slow speed"? I haven't found one, watching other riders not counter steering, they haven't found one either. They shed speed until they can steer through the corner, never leaning more than 10 degrees or so. You have all seen it, looks like a shopping cart with a bad wheel. This is the only operation on a motorcycle that I absolutely trust, the rest I verify. The physics will not fail, right?

As a young lad I would spends hours and hours on a BMX bike at slow speed on tarmac. Always pushing the limits of the physics, leaning into and counter to the turn. One handed, one footed, I would counter balance as far as my outside arm would stretch, as if pulling the bike on a string. I would also lean into the turns so hard the front wheel would push to where I thought the tire would roll off the rim. Yes, I dropped it all the time. Not knowing at the time all that was involved, looking back I can see that leaning into the turn or counter lean*, both work, but you have to do one of them.

As technology has improved on many fronts for cycling, the humans ability to push the physics has been impressive (MotoGP). Not long ago I'm riding some great twisty mountain road thinking about steering, leaning, balancing, and throttle control. Somewhere in the depths of my brain I remember about putting all my weight on the outside peg. Not wanting to upset the enjoyment of my ride, I go easy on the throttle as I shift my weight to the outside peg. It went something like, see turn, slide butt over, lock in the outside leg to the tank, push down on outside peg, lean. I know I left out push inside bar, its happening on a subconscious level. I had miles and miles of trying to get fluid, sometimes it was. I noticed how effortless everything was when I got right. I don't use my elbow as a curb feeler, and don't have dexterity of the Moto cops, but it seems that pushing that outside peg is counterbalancing. Are both techniques at play here?

As an aside, I really enjoy being a part of this community. I wonder if there are quilt making sites or such like this.

*edit for clarity.
 
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MidLife said:
Pretty brave of you to recommend a book here that represents that counter-steering is an above "walking pace" phenomenon (p 140).
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p 134 in my edition... ;)
that (counter) steering simply places the front wheel outside the motorcycle's CG (hence it's "falling over") are basic physics/given by the frond end geometric...
(there vids of Japanese Police motorcycle gymkhana who already counter-steer while stationary prepping for a tight u-turn take-off...)

Couple of years back when still running with a sports bike club, a CBR600 rider vocalized his astonishment on how I throw such an aircraft carrier around the bends so easily...
So I explained him the technique... even told him that he's already doing it unintentionally when leaning his torso into the corner...
At the next break he expressed his shock as he tried it, causing the small CBR banking off underneath him "like a ricochet"... :crackup:
He's a "lean & push on the inner foot-peg" fella... :biggrin:

But I referred that book more over the road & traffic awareness chapters and the important self observation routine...
 
Sadlsor said:
There is no need for a course on how to drop your ST, so don't waste your money.
Many, many ST owners have been able to successfully drop theirs with absolutely ZERO training or coaching.
Simply follow these steps, in order:
1. Put the ST on the sidestand.
2. Stand beside the ST.
3. While still standing next to the ST, push the ST up enough to raise the sidestand off the ground.
4. Push the sidestand into its retracted position with one foot.
5. Completely let go of the ST, while stepping away quickly.

Alternatively, if your ST is on the centerstand, it's even simpler:
1. Ensure the sidestand is raised.
2. From directly behind the ST, push the tail of the bike so that the centerstand folds up.

Either method will result in a dropped ST.
Congratulations! You've done it!
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I can add one more simple exercise
1. After riding, come to a complete stop with both feet on the ground
2. chat with rider who stops beside you
3. Dismount and assume your side stand is down
 
ST1100Y said:
.... I referred that book more over the road & traffic awareness chapters and the important self observation routine...
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I know! Was just poking at this one gentleman who hasn't seen the moon yet and caused me to drop my bike following his recommendation to countersteer to turn while walking it!
 
MidLife said:
I know! Was just poking at this one gentleman who hasn't seen the moon yet and caused me to drop my bike following his recommendation to countersteer to turn while walking it!
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Frankly, I use it while maneuvering motorcycles up and down the bike-lift... CG and that... ;)
 
Willsmotorcycle said:
Not knowing at the time all that was involved (on BMX), looking back I can see that leaning into the turn or counter, both works, but you have to do one of them.
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Ah: good sensical comments! Cycling is great intro to countersteering.

There is a slight nuance though to "you have to do one or the other": In both cases the bike IS countersteering!

Watch the front wheel when you do a quick handsfree body-lean in one direction, and you may catch that for a very brief instant it will aim slightly in the opposite direction before joining you back into the turn. You didn't countersteer it yourself into the turn, but it still went countersteered for you!

And as for doing one or the other....most of us who are not as extreme as you on a bicycle, will use a combination of both.

Now physics is physics, right? Why would a technique like body leaning that works well on a bicycle not work on a MC?

The difference is the ratio between the mass of the rider and the mass of the ride.

On a bicycle, a very light ride, you don't have to throw too much of your body into the turn to get there. Sometimes just kicking the knee out is sufficient.

Watch Tom Pidcock on his epic 100 kph downhill for the stage 12 win of the 2022 Tour de France, seen here (at 0:30) passing one of the best in the world, probably the best pass ever.




But hands free body leaning a MC? Absolutely, but given its much larger mass, you'd have to throw much more of yourself into the turn to convince it to go there. Like this guy at 1:40.




Possible? Of course. But push to turn is more convenient for most of us!

However.....

Our respectable site quipster @Sadlsor mentioned Nick Ienatsch. But actually paying attention to what he really has to say can be enlightening!

Like here for instance:

Log In ‹ Yamaha Champions Riding School — WordPress

ridelikeachampion.com ridelikeachampion.com

Quoting him:

"""""study your favorite winning racer and watch not just their turn-in point, but their turn-in rate! Nobody at the top is flicking the bike around with bar pressure only, """""

Just like you @Willsmotorcycle , the bests are using a combination of bar pressure, body lean/throw, peg weighting and knee pressure to convince their MC to go where they want it to go and at the rate they want it to go.

Now if one wants to use just bar pressure only to turn, it works too!
 
MidLife said:
But hands free body leaning a MC? Absolutely, but given its much larger mass, you'd have to throw much more of yourself into the turn to convince it to go there. Like this guy at 1:40.
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And notice that his just leaning his body weight barely made a change, he had to jerk his body weight against the bike to the side, and even then how quickly the bike recovered and straightened itself back upright.

Just like you @Willsmotorcycle , the bests are using a combination of bar pressure, body lean/throw, peg weighting and knee pressure to convince their MC to go where they want it to go and at the rate they want it to go.
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When all is said and done, regardless of the relocation of body weight by the rider, once the new center of gravity is established, the lean angle and turning radius are still controlled by applying handlebar torque.
 
Try an experiment next time you're riding: lean your weight far to one side and observe the steering torque you have to apply to maintain riding in a straight line.
 
MidLife said:
Ah: good sensical comments! Cycling is great intro to countersteering.

There is a slight nuance though to "you have to do one or the other": In both cases the bike IS countersteering!

Watch the front wheel when you do a quick handsfree body-lean in one direction, and you may catch that for a very brief instant it will aim slightly in the opposite direction before joining you back into the turn. You didn't countersteer it yourself into the turn, but it still went countersteered for you!

And as for doing one or the other....most of us who are not as extreme as you on a bicycle, will use a combination of both.

Now physics is physics, right? Why would a technique like body leaning that works well on a bicycle not work on a MC?

The difference is the ratio between the mass of the rider and the mass of the ride.

On a bicycle, a very light ride, you don't have to throw too much of your body into the turn to get there. Sometimes just kicking the knee out is sufficient.

Watch Tom Pidcock on his epic 100 kph downhill for the stage 12 win of the 2022 Tour de France, seen here (at 0:30) passing one of the best in the world, probably the best pass ever.
Click to expand...
If he's doing 100 km/h on that run then props to the motorcycle rider following him with a cameraman. Even at 60 mph, I think it'd be butt-clenching time! :eek:
 
MidLife said:
...

That Keith Code?

More seriously. he loses credibility when he rigs up a bike to demonstrate that a body throw cannot help initiate a turn on a heavy bike when another guy on a non rigged up bike clearly shows you can.
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Where can I see that?

Edit: never mind. I saw the video. Possible? Yes. Practical? No.
 
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