Helmets Shoei Multitec Helmet and Heat

[2006FJR]

I just wanted to share something I learned this last week. Long story short; I bought a Motocomm MC-752 and a Motorola TALKABOUT T9500XLR Two Way Radios to install into both of our Multitec helmets. My wife's helmet was pretty easy with no issues and I was able to tuck the extra cords very carefully down the back of her helmet. On my helmet there was a deformity in the internal foam on the back piece that is against the back of my neck and the front piece where it looks like it was melted or something? I live about 2 miles from Shoei Irvine so I thought I would stop in to see what they thought.

They told me this likely happened while it was in the side case in my FJR on a hot day? Is that possible. He told me there was significant internal heat damage and that I would need to pay $75 for him to replace this piece. I asked him if this was a manufacturing defect or if this could be serviced under their warranty and Patrick replied, "no". He went on to say that if my head hit in that place on the helmet that it would not be good so I decided to have it repaired. I had a ride this weekend so they were able to do a 1-day turn around and I picked up the helmet the next day. I am not sure how helpful this information is but I thought I would share it in the event others had a similar issue. I do not think I will be putting my helmet in the side case anymore after a long ride when the bike is hot. The helmet is either on my head or in the side case so I am thinking it must have happened then. I finished installing the Motocomm headset and it works perfectly. I even got the MP3 attachment for another $19 and was able to listen to my iPod during the ride AND hear my wife when she wanted to point something out. Both units with radio's came to $205 and it was the cheapest solution I could find that works perfectly. Stay safe guys and if you have one of these helmets check the foam inside your helmet to make sure it has not broke-down due to heat.

 

[RideTN]

thanx for the tip!!

 

[Papa Bear]

I always store my helmet in the side case so I'm going to check right now. Thanks for letting us know.


Papa Bear.

 

[Fred D]

Three questions. First, is the Multitec liner made of expanded or extruded polystyrene? Second, does expanded or extruded polystyrene melt at the same temps as polystyrene. Third, I wonder how hot it gets in either the FJR's or the ST's saddlebags?

The Wikipedia on polystyrene says it melts at 240C (464F) and can be dishwashed without deforming at 70C (158F). No mention of melting~deform temps for XPS or EPS.

 

[Papa Bear]

My wife and I both have HJC CL-Max's. My wifes helmet has never been in a saddle bag and mine spends a good part of the riding season in one. I checked them both out and they both still look identical so I'm assuming that the heat in my saddle bag is not affecting my helmet at all.

But thanks for the heads up just the same.

Papa Bear.

 

[half_a_tiger]

The heat inside the panniers are tolerable when the bike is running. When parked after a run, now that's another issue and I'd rather not take any chances by leaving things inside that can't tolerate heat. In the small glove compartments on both sides of the gas tank, you could probably have eggs boiled in 5 mins or less...

 

[2006FJR]

Three questions. First, is the Multitec liner made of expanded or extruded polystyrene? Second, does expanded or extruded polystyrene melt at the same temps as polystyrene. Third, I wonder how hot it gets in either the FJR's or the ST's saddlebags?

The Wikipedia on polystyrene says it melts at 240C (464F) and can be dishwashed without deforming at 70C (158F). No mention of melting~deform temps for XPS or EPS.

Hey Fred. Shoei told me the liner inside my helmet is the same stuff coolers are made out of and they gave me the liner after thye installed the new one. (Imagine a helmet shaped cooler of styrofoam) The helmet is going in the top case from now on.

 

[2006FJR]

This sounds kinds fishy!

If there were enough heat, inside the pannier to deform a helmet, wouldn't there be some heat damage to the plastic underside of the pannier itself?

Between the liner and the helmet, there's two fairly thick layers of material (saddlebag bottom and helmet shell) that are both formed with some sort fo heat. I have a hard time believing that neither of those would sustain any damage before the foam would warp.

The plastic piece was also deformed and Patrick also replaced that piece too. As far as the side cases there was no visable damage inside or outside. Could it have been something else? Sure, I am just not sure what it could have been? I love these helmets and are not going anywhere and this small repair is not going to have me crying the blues. More than anything I wanted to know if anyone else was having similar issues.

 

[Scooter]

Well I guess that this just proves that the FJR puts out more heat than the ST1300!!!





BTW... I am somewhat skeptical of their explanation but thanks for posting it nonetheless.

 

[2006FJR]

Well I guess that this just proves that the FJR puts out more heat than the ST1300!!!





BTW... I am somewhat skeptical of their explanation but thanks for posting it nonetheless.

I have never experienced heat until I rode the C14. I wanted to remove my left leg and throw it in the top case. I have never riden an ST1300 yet but I have been wanting to go in and give it a test drive. Do they allow to test drive the bikes at the dealership?

 

[wjbertrand]

Three questions. First, is the Multitec liner made of expanded or extruded polystyrene? Second, does expanded or extruded polystyrene melt at the same temps as polystyrene. Third, I wonder how hot it gets in either the FJR's or the ST's saddlebags?

The Wikipedia on polystyrene says it melts at 240C (464F) and can be dishwashed without deforming at 70C (158F). No mention of melting~deform temps for XPS or EPS.

1. Virtually all helmets use expanded PS foam. Extrusion is a good process for making lengths of material having a continuous shape, like tubing or aluminum patio door rails. I don't think you could extrude the complex, non-continuous shapes necessary to make helmets.
2. Yes, expanded PS is still polystyrene, it has just been foamed or expanded using a blowing agent. The melt temperature is the same.
3. Dunno.

Regarding the damage to your helmet, do use a Helmet Guardian to lock up your helmets? I know on the ST1300 the helmet will touch the exhaust pipe when using one of these. This sounds like a more plausible explanation for the localized damage you describe.

 

[pepollock]

The energy absorbing material is indeed EPS (expanded polystyrene), the same stuff used for ice chests and packing blocks. The EPS in a helmet is much higher density (harder) than an ice chest - surprisingly hard. It is molded in a closed mold under a temperature that makes the tiny little "beads" of polystyrene expand. If you look at an Arai helmet that has been cut in half you will note that the EPS is colored slightly (red, blue and white) indicating different densities for different areas of the helmet.

EPS melts and gives off smelly, toxic fumes when burned, just like polystyrene. There is so little actual material in EPS that recycling it is often not practical. Those EPS packaging "peanuts" are an ecological disaster when put in landfills since they do not biodegrade in any reasonable time frame.

BTW, EPS is not "styrofoam".

Pete
( Over 50 years ago helmets used cork as the energy absorbing liner.)

 

[wjbertrand]

What is Styrofoam then? As a materials / polymer scientist, I've always known Styrofoam as a brand name (now genericised) for EPS? If you hit Wikipedia with "styrofoam" it says "see polystyrene".

 

[pepollock]

The term "styofoam" is often used to mean EPS, and vice versa, but they are not the same. Both are polystyrene plastic but EPS is made up of little balls (beads) of foam that are stuck together. If you break up an ice chest you will see the beads - they ususally stick all over you from static. Stryofoam is not beads but a true foam, kinda like on a draft beer, but hard. It doesn't have either the energy absorbing or thermal insulating properties of EPS.

By the way, thanks for the tip on leaving the helmet in the panniers. Never would have thought about it. I know a guy who hung his Bell on a lock but it was touching the muffler. New helmet vent! The melted plastic was tough to get off the muffler!

 

[timmybob4]

I always store my Scorpion EXO700 in a saddlebag when I stop for lunch. About once per month I remove the helmet liner and toss it in the washer. There do not appear to be any defects in the EPS/styrofoam/energy absorbant material.

I am skeptical of the Shoei dealer's reply. A common standard of measure for saddle bags is if they will hold a full face helmet. Why list this on your web site if you're not supposed to put a helmet in your saddlebag?

Also, I keep baggies and other items in the saddlebags which I would imagine would melt prior to the inside of a helmet (though I haven't tested my theory).

 

[st1300r]

From the localized damage described it does not sound like heat in the side case. EPS can be overexpanded such that it does not take the exact shape of the mold but bulges out. That would be a manufacturing defect. You descibed the EPS as melted looking though. Is it possible it came in contact with acetone like nail polish etc. and not heat?

My HJC helmet has stayed in the side case on hot days with no noticeable damage.

 

[wjbertrand]

The term "styofoam" is often used to mean EPS, and vice versa, but they are not the same. Both are polystyrene plastic but EPS is made up of little balls (beads) of foam that are stuck together. If you break up an ice chest you will see the beads - they ususally stick all over you from static. Stryofoam is not beads but a true foam, kinda like on a draft beer, but hard. It doesn't have either the energy absorbing or thermal insulating properties of EPS.

By the way, thanks for the tip on leaving the helmet in the panniers. Never would have thought about it. I know a guy who hung his Bell on a lock but it was touching the muffler. New helmet vent! The melted plastic was tough to get off the muffler!

OK then sounds like it's the same material chemically but a different manufacturing process.

 

[2006FJR]

I always store my Scorpion EXO700 in a saddlebag when I stop for lunch. About once per month I remove the helmet liner and toss it in the washer. There do not appear to be any defects in the EPS/styrofoam/energy absorbant material.

I am skeptical of the Shoei dealer's reply. A common standard of measure for saddle bags is if they will hold a full face helmet. Why list this on your web site if you're not supposed to put a helmet in your saddlebag?

Also, I keep baggies and other items in the saddlebags which I would imagine would melt prior to the inside of a helmet (though I haven't tested my theory).

I was actually working with Shoei themselves at their Irvine facility. I really do think their was a manufactures defect but I was not going to win the agruement. I am not convinced that this happened in the side case. This could have happende before I got the helmet and never noticed....

 

[traildad]

I don't believe that the side cas could do that. The figure of 400 deg + quited earlier sounds correct and that would have serious detrimental affects to the case itself. You would see warping, etc...... Something caused the deformation of your helmet. But the tech you talked to was just guessing as to the side case I'll bet.

 

[Scooter]

I have never riden an ST1300 yet but I have been wanting to go in and give it a test drive. Do they allow to test drive the bikes at the dealership?

Call a couple of dealerships in your area. If they have a used one on hand I'm sure you could get a test drive. If all they have is a new one it might not be possible. When I was looking at the '03's back in 03 I had to go to a couple of dealers before I found one that would let me test drive one.