SMC differences

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Oct 1, 2021
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10
Age
123
Location
Ireland
Hello,
I’m having some brake issues where both the front and back brakes are dragging, very slow to release. Brake pads were changed all round last year with callipers cleaned and seals replaced.

Recently I’ve noticed the bike is very stiff to move unpowered but this frees up after a few km riding. From what I’ve read online I’m thinking the SMC may be the issue. I can’t find a used one from an ABS model bike but I can find one from a non abs model.
Is there any difference in the SMC between ABS and non ABS model ST1100?

thanks,
Niall
 
You would be better off buying a new SMC. I've not read any posts where anyone even tried to install a used one.

The key to long life with the SMC, is to change the brake fluid regularly, and a lot of guys here do it yearly. Letting an SMC sit on a junk dealer's shelf for who knows how long does not sound like the ideal way to store one of these devices.

When you changed the seals on the calipers, did you pull the pistons out and change the square cross section o-ring in each piston's home?
 
This reply is about the 1300. My Error - Sorry. EDIT - The original post is about the ST1100.
I have put a line through my original comment and made the text white, where my answer is irrelevant. So that you can see what an idiot I was, select the crossed out white text !

If the front brakes are dragging on the move as you describe - and that includes the front left - then that will cause the rear brakes to drag as a result of the action of the SMC.
If that is the case, then the problem lies with the front left caliper - which may or may not include an issue with the caliper bracket.

Find out why your front left is dragging first of all.
Then do the SMC check - which involves getting help or lying down next to the bike on the left hand side - foot turning the rear wheel and hands able to reach the front left caliper. The rear wheel should turn freely. If it doesn't then you have an issue which proably does involve the SMC.


If it does turn freely, then operate the SMC by pushing the bracket forward and up towards the fork. I can get my fingers around the fork leg and squeeze against the heel of my hand (a bit like a brake lever) - but a simple push at the top end should suffice. The SMC will move only 1-2 mm. Not much at all, but the rear wheel should lock so that you cannot turn it.
And then, once it is locked, when you release the SMC then the rear wheel should free up - instantly.

If the rear wheel doesn't lock and free up, then you have an issue with the SMC and it will need replacing.

It doesn't usually cause the front wheel to lock - but it may do. I'm not going to speculate further, but there may be a separate issue at the front end - including not following the procedure for installing the front wheel. Let us know what you find, we can go from there.

To answer your question - there is no difference in the SMC model between ABS and non-ABS - BUT - there is a difference between ST1300s in the model year - ie those whose desing is before 2008 and those built from 2008 onwards.

Check the white label under your pillion seat - It will say something like ST1300A-6, ST1300-6, ST1300A-4, ST1300-4, ST1300A-9 etc

The 'A' indicates ABS. The single digit indicates the model year. Eg ST1300A-9 is an ABS version - the 2009 model. (That model number lasted until the end of 2013 when a new model number was introduced for 2014 - the ST1300A-E.

Fowlers parts is a good source in the UK. Fast and as cheap as anywhere else in the British Isles. No-one is allowed to sell stuff at anything but the Honda price. Order online of phone them with your frame number - they will tell you which items you want. For the 1100 version T=1996, V=1997, W=1998, X= 1990, Y=2000. 2001 and had a digit 1 - I think.

Genuine Honda Motorcycle Parts & Spares | Fowlers Parts

Be very cautious about buying one from a used bike !! You do not know what you are getting and the inside of the SMC can hide all sorts of issues. People selling them do not often know that there were significant changes from 2008 onwards. If you decide to ignore that, then consider the fact that this part may have been in use since 2000 - 24 years. It has braked enough already !! You also have to consider that the bike that it has come from has crashed - the part is very vulnerable on the left front fork leg - Any knock will distort the cyclinder. Then you have to wonder why it crashed. Did the rear wheel lock up, I wonder.

I couldn't ride with all of those 'What if' questions running through my head. SMC's are not cheap - but compared to say fitting a new set of tyres , they compare pretty well, and looked after properly will not need to be changed again.
 
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You would be better off buying a new SMC. I've not read any posts where anyone even tried to install a used one.

The key to long life with the SMC, is to change the brake fluid regularly, and a lot of guys here do it yearly. Letting an SMC sit on a junk dealer's shelf for who knows how long does not sound like the ideal way to store one of these devices.

When you changed the seals on the calipers, did you pull the pistons out and change the square cross section o-ring in each piston's home?


Yes, I think I changed two seals per piston. Do you think cleaning the SMC or using a rebuild kit is unlikely to solve the problem ? A new SMC is going to be at least €500 after VAT & Import duties from the UK to Ireland are included :(
 
If the front brakes are dragging on the move as you describe - and that includes the front left - then that will cause the rear brakes to drag as a result of the action of the SMC.
If that is the case, then the problem lies with the front left caliper - which may or may not include an issue with the caliper bracket.

Find out why your front left is dragging first of all.
Then do the SMC check - which involves getting help or lying down next to the bike on the left hand side - foot turning the rear wheel and hands able to reach the front left caliper. The rear wheel should turn freely. If it doesn't then you have an issue which proably does involve the SMC.


If it does turn freely, then operate the SMC by pushing the bracket forward towards the fork. I can get my fingers around the fork leg and squeeze against the heel of my hand (a bit like a brake lever) - but a simple push at the top end should suffice. The SMC will move only 1-2 mm. Not much at all, but the rear wheel should lock so that you cannot turn it.
And then, once it is locked, when you release the SMC then the rear wheel should free up - instantly.

If the rear wheel doesn't lock and free up, then you have an issue with the SMC and it will need replacing.

It doesn't usually cause the front wheel to lock - but it may do. I'm not going to speculate further, but there may be a separate issue at the front end - including not following the procedure for installing the front wheel. Let us know what you find, we can go from there.

To answer your question - there is no difference in the SMC model between ABS and non-ABS - BUT - there is a difference between ST1300s in the model year - ie those whose desing is before 2008 and those built from 2008 onwards.

Check the white label under your pillion seat - It will say something like ST1300A-6, ST1300-6, ST1300A-4, ST1300-4, ST1300A-9 etc

The 'A' indicates ABS. The single digit indicates the model year. Eg ST1300A-9 is an ABS version - the 2009 model. (That model number lasted until the end of 2013 when a new model number was introduced for 2014 - the ST1300A-E.

Fowlers parts is a good source in the UK. Fast and as cheap as anywhere else in the British Isles. No-one is allowed to sell stuff at anything but the Honda price. Order online of phone them with your frame number - they will tell you which items you want.

Genuine Honda Motorcycle Parts & Spares | Fowlers Parts

Do not buy one from a used bike !! You do not know what you are getting and the inside of the SMC can hide all sorts of issues. People selling them do not often know that there were significant changes from 2008 onwards. If you decide to ignore that, then consider the fact that this part may have been in use since 2002 - 22 years. It has braked enough already !! You also have to consider that the bike that it has come from has crashed - the part is very vulnerable on the left front fork leg - Any knock will distort the cyclinder. Then you have to wonder why it crashed. Did the rear wheel lock up, I wonder.

I couldn't ride with all of those 'What if' questions running through my head. SMC's are not cheap - but compared to say fitting a new set of tyres , they are peanuts, and looked after properly will not need to be changed again.

Hi John

I will try test the SMC tomorrow and see if the back wheel stops when the SMC is activated and if it releases. Interestingly I did have new tyres put on the bike a couple of weeks ago so I did have the front wheel off the bike and I put it back on, I wont say I was aware of a specific procedure for putting the wheel back on the bike, so I will need to go look that up!

Would cleaning the port on the SMC resolve the issue if that is the case? The cost of an new SMC from Fowlers ( or anywhere ese ) is eye watering !

Regards
Niall
 
Yes, I think I changed two seals per piston. Do you think cleaning the SMC or using a rebuild kit is unlikely to solve the problem ? A new SMC is going to be at least €500 after VAT & Import duties from the UK to Ireland are included :(
Short answer, Yes, you are unlikely to solve the problem by cleaning the SMC or by rebuilding it.

Longer explanation, The number of guys who have successfully rebuilt a SMC is probably the same as the number of hens teeth in your sock drawer. Several guys have tried, and if my memory is right, one guy got a few months use out of it. In total honesty, we have to factor in the vast numbers of folks who have rebuilt these things but are not members of this forum, live in caves, do not tell anyone about their activities, and ride like IBA riders. But none of us here have met any of those guys. Seriously, we are talking about a life safety part of your bike that can lock up the rear wheel and not release it, or at best, cause significant damage to the braking system in the event of a failure. The SMC has some extremely small ports that are difficult to clean. The only user serviceable area is the rubber boot and perhaps applying silicone grease to the plunger/boot area to keep water out. Dimensions (of the rod) are critical and you should not loosen the lock nut to adjust this.

Yes, these parts are not cheap. Last I checked (about 20 seconds ago), the SMC went for $225USD and the left front caliper w/ SMC is priced at almost $550. That is on this side of the pond, and we have no VAT tax (sales tax that might reach 10% in some areas) or import fees (at point of sale).

John is far far more expert and knowledgeable about the bike's braking system that I. My experience comes from the care and maintenance of my 1300 for several years without any major problems.
 
There's a simple way to test the SMC while on the bike... just remove the screw that secures the SMC top actuator fork and see if the actuator fork feels loose (SMC piston not fully returned) or the fork feels "spring loaded" - SMC piston fully returned. Also, rebuilding a SMC is not just replacing the piston and seals (provided the bore is usable). There's the fluid return circuit (within the SMC body) that is responsible for releasing the built up pressure (just like any MC), and in my case that circuit was contaminated with rust and gunk.

I am trying to understand why a properly rebuilt SMC (within reasonable limits of bore wear) will fail to work as good as a new part. Logically, if a bike has logged 100K miles on the clock then I'd get a new part.
 
Hello,
I’m having some brake issues where both the front and back brakes are dragging, very slow to release. Brake pads were changed all round last year with callipers cleaned and seals replaced.

Recently I’ve noticed the bike is very stiff to move unpowered but this frees up after a few km riding. From what I’ve read online I’m thinking the SMC may be the issue. I can’t find a used one from an ABS model bike but I can find one from a non abs model.
Is there any difference in the SMC between ABS and non ABS model ST1100?

thanks,
Niall
Be careful with some of the advice received, A lot of the guys here will quote you things for the ST1300. They are similar but different. The 1100 has fewer problems with the SMC. You might take a look at wheel alignment since you re-installed the front wheel. Inspect and determine which wheel is binding and come back with details before buying any parts Also check the brake master for blockage of the relief port.
 
To answer your question - there is no difference in the SMC model between ABS and non-ABS - BUT - there is a difference between ST1300s in the model year - ie those whose desing is before 2008 and those built from 2008 onwards.

Check the white label under your pillion seat - It will say something like ST1300A-6, ST1300-6, ST1300A-4, ST1300-4, ST1300A-9 etc

The 'A' indicates ABS. The single digit indicates the model year. Eg ST1300A-9 is an ABS version - the 2009 model. (That model number lasted until the end of 2013 when a new model number was introduced for 2014 - the ST1300A-E.
This is posted under ST1100 Related > ST1100-Brakes and the OP asks "Is there any difference in the SMC between ABS and non ABS model ST1100?"

What does this have to do with ST1300 model years?

Cheers, Bozo
 
This is posted under ST1100 Related > ST1100-Brakes and the OP asks "Is there any difference in the SMC between ABS and non ABS model ST1100?"

What does this have to do with ST1300 model years?

Cheers, Bozo
I was wondering the same thing. :)
 
This is posted under ST1100 Related > ST1100-Brakes and the OP asks "Is there any difference in the SMC between ABS and non ABS model ST1100?"

What does this have to do with ST1300 model years?

Cheers, Bozo
There have been many instances where someone doesn't notice the category and gave erroneous advice for an ST1100 with ST1300 facts.

That being said. I think there are differences between ABS and non ABS I don't remember an SMC on NON ABS ST1100s, The ABS is a 2 puck caliper, the ABSII is a 3 puck caliper. Another factor is the Year of the bike and whether it has linked or non linked brakes. The OP should post up some picures of his actual bike and state the model year
 
Oh tish. Thanks for pointing that out. Sorry folks. My post was aimed at the ST1300 -
Advice about the SMC is sound though and the test is still relevant to the 1100.

I will go back and edit my earlier post.
 
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Right Quick ST1100 response.

It would be really helpful to know which ST1100 model you have. I am assuming 1999 or 2000 - 3 pistons per caliper.

I believe that the Combined braking system (CBS or LBS) which has the SMC was only available with the ABS model. Honda's documentation history of models suggests that this was introduced in 1996, but the fiches for the UK do not include a secondary master cylinder until 1998. The ST1100 AW. The SMC is mounted on the front left fork leg, but it is mounted vertically, with the open end pointing downwards - very much like the rear master cylinder.

The SMC on the 1300 faces upwards and is subject to damage to the bore if not serviced correctly.

1716018489127.pngThe SMC on the ST1100A is hidden behind a grey plastic shroud and is attached to the the fork leg with two curved metal plates and an 'Ace of Clubs' linkage. This connects together the fork leg, the SMC plunger and the top of the caliper bracket. The action of the front brake grabbing the disk moves the caliper forward and up - which pushes the plunger of the secondary master cylinder and applies the rear brakes. The linkage is subject to rust, decay and crud chucked up from the road surface, and because it is hidden behind that plastic shround on the mudguard, the decay is not visible at a casual glance. In Ireland you probably get more of this than we do in West Yorkshire.

A couple of the holes in this linkage have needle roller bearings in them (see the green part on the right, and this entire mechanism can seize up. The braking force to operate the SMC is massive. But it has only the spring inside the cyclinder to return it. When it gets stuck, the piston will not return, the main seal in the SMC will not clear the pressure relief compensation port, and it will keep the pressure on the rear brake.

Would I service a rear master cyclinder with a service kit. Yes I would.

I have never had the ST1100 SMC apart - but I have owned an ST1100 ABS/CBS/TCS bike with the SMC arrangement as shown in the picture on the right - and I have performed this clean-up operation. Would I service that with a service kit ? I don't know - but I would have a good look at it and consider it. Unlike the ST1300, the pressure end is at the top and it is sealed. The end that may suffer from ingress of water at the boot is at the bottom, and the operation is very similar to the rear master cylinder operated by the brake pedal. But if I bought a service kit, I'd buy the OEM one. I have had a situation where a friend came round for help with locking front brake, and it turned out that his cheap replacement service kit had a plunger that was a tiny fraction too long - so his lever was always applying a bit of front brake. It pushed the piston main seal beyond the tiny compensation port, so having applied the brakes, they could not release pressure and his front wheel was locked solid.

One thing is for certain - the length of that plunger is critical. Yet it seems to be screwed on and have a lock nut. I don't know how easy it is to get at the circlip with that in place, so there will be a very strong temptation to remove it. And that is where the danger lies. However, the service manual does not make a big issue of this. There are torque values for two nuts - so I guess the first nut just tightens agains the end of the thread. However, to be sure, I would still measure it before taking it apart - as described below.

If you are determined to 'have a go' then you must extend the SMC plunger as far as possible and find a way of measuring - very accurately - the length. It doesn't matter which reference points you use, as long as you can measure it again from the same points when you put it back together. It has to be identical. So you need an accurate caliper with a vernier scale and you need to know how to read the vernier scale. Something that will give you a measurement accurate to 0.01mm. The cheaper electronic ones are not usually accurate enough.

The amount of movement at the SMC is really very small. Get this wrong and you risk a rear wheel lockup - which could be fatal.

But the good news is - if this has been serviced well (ie fluids changed AT LEAST every two years) then the problem is more likely to be with the linkage, not with the SMC. So it is certainly worth undoing the bolts, inspecting the bearings, cleaning them up. and reassembling.

When I did mine the rust on the metal plates was preventing the assembly form moving. I removed them, cleaned them up with a wire brush and repainted them. The bearing were not turning at all = jammed solid with muck - but no sign of rust. The inner sleeves cleaned up nice and shiny with a bit of paraffin. I removed and reused the seals, and the bearings I left to soak in parrafin and later scrubbed in situ with a small 'tooth brush'. They became loose and rolled freely in the residual parrafin. I then washed them with water and detergent - and they were running freely. Cleaned with rag on a stick which I inserted back and forth and turned - then rinsed with WD-40 to dispel any residual water and then cleaned with clean cloth. Finally packed with ordinary bearing grease, and inserted the inner sleeve to check how well they rolled. Perfect. I should have replaced the seals, but there was never any sign of grease escaping and I checked the movement of that linkage whenever I had the wheel out.

None of this explains why the front wheel is dragging. But there is still the correct procedure to follow when installing the front wheel.

The issue is that the axle isn't just held in place. When the axle bolt is tightened at the right hand end it actually pulls together all of the components that make up the hub. If the fork pinch bolts are tight, it cannot draw the axle across, so the wheel hub components are not clamped together. The spacers the bearings, the bearing spacer - and they all get clamped and locked solid against the right hand fork leg. I cannot remember whether the speedo bearing is part of this. Probably.

It is important that the right hand pinch bolt is not tight when the axle bolt is torqued. If necessary tighten the left hand pinch bolts to stop the axle from turning - but dont do this until the axle has been pushed all the way through as far as it will go with hand pressure. Once the main axle bolt is properly torqued, undo the left side pinch bolts. It is usually a good idea to bounce the forks a few times, and then the axle bolts at the bottom of the fork legs can be tightened after checking the clearance for the left hand brake caliper against the rotating brake disc. If the clearance isn't at least 0.7mm - both sides of the left hand disc, then undo the left hand fork leg and move the fork slightly along the axle so that the clearance is achieved.

nb Left / Right refer to the side of the bike as if you were sitting on it. Left is the clutch lever / SMC side. Right is the brake lever / Main axle bolt side.

If it isn't done like this then the left caliper may be slightly out of position in relation to the brake disc and (Particularly new) pads will be held permanently aginst the disc surface - which will cause front brake drag, which will cause the SMC to operate which will cause rear brake drag.

And all of the information that is contained in https://www.st-owners.com/forums/threads/st1300-brake-maintenance-avoiding-the-pitfalls.135125/
is relevant to the ST1100 Pan Europeans that have 3 pistons per caliper.
 
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