Spline rust and dust

glym49

Joined
Oct 27, 2009
Messages
10
Location
Vermilion,Oh
I got a new rear tire for Christmas and took the wheel off today to take it to my favorite cousins house ( he has a NoMar changer) Looking at the splines they seemed like they were starting to rust and I notice a lot of gray dust inside the hub. The grease didn't seem greasy it might have been contaminated by the gray dust. I've always used Honda moly. The only O ring I see is the one behind the splines on the removeable part of the hub. How do I clean the splines on the rear end and what could cause the rust and dust. 105k miles on a 92.

Thanks Kim (in cold Ohio)
 
If I understand things correctly, the moly paste is not actually a grease, but rather a particulate lubricant mixed into a paste for easier application and stick-ability. The moly in the paste is the grey dust, and the lack of greasiness means the paste part has disappeared. I'm not a moly paste expert, but I think that's how it works.

I'm not entirely sure the best way of cleaning the rust off other than wiping it down with a rag really well and using a toothbrush in the splines. After you clean everything off, you can check the splines for wear. If they aren't worn and the edges are all still nicely squared, then I wouldn't sweat it.

Mike Martin (and many others) recommend replacing the 3 o-rings whenever you remove the rear wheel. I don't subscribe to that line of thought unless I see conditions such as yours in my rear spline or I notice that one of the 3 o-rings are damaged. If the o-rings are still in tact and the moly paste is still present and clean, I don't change the o-rings. In your situation, I would change the o-rings after cleaning things up, and then I would apply the appropriate amount of moly paste to the appropriate places as required.

Mike Martin's maintenance tips:
http://home.insightbb.com/~mmartin36/3rdOring.htm
 
+1 on Jed's comments.

I've seen rusty looking splines on ST1300s but I'm not sure it means anything. The shape of the splines is what is important. Perhaps a lot of rain riding and lets in some water and that causes the rust?

I've used q-tips to get the hard to reach places.
 
juddspaintballs said:
If I understand things correctly, the moly paste is not actually a grease, but rather a particulate lubricant mixed into a paste for easier application and stick-ability. The moly in the paste is the grey dust, and the lack of greasiness means the paste part has disappeared. I'm not a moly paste expert, but I think that's how it works.
http://home.insightbb.com/~mmartin36/3rdOring.htm
Click to expand...

I've had a bunch of that fine dust as well. Thought it was from rub marks on the inner hub surface, but this idea is interesting. Anyone verify if it is indeed actually the moly itself? I would be much happier if this were the case..
 
Thanks for the info!! When changing the tire at my cousin's (He has ridden BMWs all his life) we noticed some wear of the splines (not too bad) but also noticed the dampers seemed loose and the bolt heads holding the damper plate are worn on the same side on each bolt. I haven't found the right size allen wrench to remove the plate but feel at least some of the gray powder might be rubber from the dampers. Thanks for the help and illustrations, now I know where the O rings are and will replace. I'll post after I inspect the dampers.

Thanks again, Kim
 
Well, I get the grey dust, too. I think the right amount of moly paste should turn mostly to dust by the time I need a new tire. I have a little rust on the splines. My splines are not perfect. I change O rings about every third or fourth tire. I ride quite a little:) Mine is a '93 with 106k.

I suspect the 'cush drive' is a contributing factor in the dust question, too.
 
Kim,

You need a common 6mm hex-bit socket for the damper holder plate screws. Damper rubber dust should not be able to find its way to the final drive/driven flange splines. I agree with my friend Rob - there should be NO contact/wear on the heads of the damper holder plate screws (edit: or rust on the splines). You need to investigate this. And when you reinstall the rear wheel, recommend you loosen the final drive nuts and do the alignment procedure first.

Here's my pics (with captions, incl torque values) of an ST1100 rear wheel R&R.
http://rides.webshots.com/album/551173257ZoegDt

edit: how old are the dampers and inserts, and are the inserts' holes elongated?

Regards, John
 
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hawkeyeST said:
If those screw heads are worn, you have a problem. The thrust washer is missing and/or you have excessive wear on the end of the wheel hub.
Click to expand...

That is what I was going to suggest. This is what the thrust washer looks like - it's the light green colored item in this pic (don't ask me how it got to be that color)

Check to see if you have one - sometimes it will stick to the other piece

ThrustWasher.jpg
 
Thanks for all the replies!! I'm not sure I have a handle on everything but after removing the damper plate I noticed some of the dampers were worn. One of the damper metal inserts slides out the bottom of the damper and is wearing against the inside of the wheel and another is torn on the top. I will replace all of them. Hopefully it will stop the hub from hitting the damper plate screw heads. Looks like I have a few months to get the job done before the weather breaks.
Thanks again !!!
Kim
 
Thanks for all the replies!! I'm not sure I have a handle on everything but after removing the damper plate I noticed some of the dampers were worn. One of the damper metal inserts slides out the bottom of the damper and is wearing against the inside of the wheel and another is torn on the top. I will replace all of them. Hopefully it will stop the hub from hitting the damper plate screw heads. Looks like I have a few months to get the job done before the weather breaks.
Thanks again !!!
Kim
 
Kim, I'll second all the comments above. I've worn out a couple spline sets (I have another drive driven spline setting on the shelf for STick right now.)

Do the rubbers and inserts, do make sure the thrust washer is present, do replace all three o-rings, do the rear drive alignment as suggested by John.

A little surface rust is an indication the o-rings need changed. A lot of rust (and worn splines) indicates you let it all go too long. Bad o-rings let the lube leak instead of staying in place, also lets the moisture in.

Keep us poSTed.
 
hawkeyeST said:
If those screw heads are worn, you have a problem. The thrust washer is missing and/or you have excessive wear on the end of the wheel hub.
Click to expand...

I have found the same worn looking screw heads.

Bike is a '93 with 37,000 miles on it.
Bought new rubbers and inserts.
Trying to re-assemble and it seems that the hub will not go all the way into wheel, and instead is hitting the screw heads.

Is it possible that some of these ST1100's were modified from the dealer? Grinding down one side of the screw heads a little to make the hub fit? I did not replace screws in same holes, so ground portion does not line up facing outward. I might try re-installing screws to see if that helps.

When inserted, does the hub go in far enough that the oblong portion of rear of stud is inside the rubber holding ring slots? If so, that is impossible unless I do something with the screws (move until ground section allows further insertion.


Here are some photos. I used some white grease on top of screws to see if they were indeed hitting hub. Yes they are.
 

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Yes, thrust washer is there. Greased up with moly 60, ready to go. O-ring is off until I can figure out how to seat this thing firmly.

The hub does not even go into wheel far enough that thrust washer makes contact with hub. Hub is hitting the rubber retaining ring screw heads!

Unless the oblong rear studs on hub are not supposed to fit into slots on rubber holding ring. Then it might be fully seated.

I replied in this thread because mine also started as spline rust and dust, even though 10,000 miles ago moly 60 was used at last tire change. Half of large o-ring was missing, while other two o-rings looked fine. Replaced all 3 anyway. New large o-ring seems twice as thick as old though. There are 2 part numbers used for this large o-ring, and I bought both just in case. Both are identical. 61x2, 91302-MA6-003 $3.18 OR 91304-KT8-003 $1.46
 
More trial and error, and it does look like the screws are ground down on one side purposely by factory or dealer when new.

Removed all screws and thrust washer.
Hub goes in wheel until outer cast ring of hub touches wheel. It can never go further than that.
Thrust washer area in wheel does not contact hub (thrust washer removed).
Oblong on rear of studs do not go into retainer ring.

Replaced thrust washer and tried that without screws, using thin layer of grease to determine contact area.
Thrust washer now lightly contacts hub and wheel. Good.

Replaced screws in correct holes, ensuring ground area would be located toward outer edge.
Positioned thrust washer again with thin layer of grease to see contact.
Again, thrust washer makes light contact with hub while screws are in correct position. Great.

Looks like mystery solved, unless I am missing something?
As long as good parts are there, with correct contact on thrust washer, should be fine?
 
RobsTV
I'm not convinced that any grinding down of any thing has gone on on your bike by any person.
That just is not right in my opinion. Who ground the contact areas on the spider then in pic 1?
No thats not grinding thats abnormal wear. Sorry mate but thats the way I see it, and I would be checking further. Are they the correct allen bolts? is the plate facing the right way is the reverse of it recesed to take the bolt head.
 
hawkeyeST said:
It doesn't take much wear on the end of the wheel hub to allow the flange to contact those screws. It looks like you have some wear there. This is especially true if you have the old style steel thrust washer, which is thinner than the later plastic version.
Click to expand...

Yes, it has the thin steel thrust washer. I did not know there was a different thicker plastic version. Nothing came up in any posts about 2 versions. Actually I read the posts from various sites as saying as long as it is not damaged, do not replace thrust washer, since they can last forever. Can that thicker version be used in a bike that came with metal thrust washer?

alphafang
I am sure there was some wear from worn inserts and rubbers. Hub did not stay in wheel when rim was removed from bike, and couple rubbers come out with no effort, plus some inserts were elongated. They are now replaced with new, so the wear caused by these should no longer be an issue, or not? Plate and rubbers all installed corrected with outside readable after installation. I did not notice any recessed area for bolt heads.

The only area that looks as though it could increase or reduce the distance between hub and screws is the thrust washer.

The tire I installed is a used left over that I hope to use for a few thousand miles, so I will be removing rear again in a couple months before next major trip. Safe until then, and replace thrust washer with thicker plastic at that time?
 
Is the wheel bearing fully seated down into the wheel recess? The outer edges of the wheel bearings' inner and outer races should be level with or slightly below the surface/face of the wheel (the part of the wheel that the thrust washer lies on), NOT higher. Just speculating, but a missing thrust washer, or worn dampers and elongated insert holes, could allow the driven flange to rock some and wear the wheel surface down...

You may need to replace the thrust washer with a thicker version. I know of one STrider with a similar problem that simply installed a second thrust washer. There is a mechanic's technique of determining gap/shim thicknesses with a kind of plastic material that get 'squished' and is then measured. In a pinch, I'd use what's in my tool chest to check the gap: PlayDoh (yes, really... can be very handy). Or maybe some soft solder. Just thinking out loud here...

Bottom line though, your driven flange is protruding too far into your wheel. IMHO

John
 
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