ST1100 - still flooded?

[ST_SVK]

Smudgemo: that is exactly the reason why I want to start engine first and then try to clean/disassemble something. You are right, engine fires up nicely, after few minutes I was able to put choke to fully OFF (idle somewhere around 1100 rpm) and than during ride everything works well. Then, there where few (5 maybe) cold starts with choke on, one minute of run and then just shut down bike. After all of this I was not able to start bike again. Then I find out, that spark plugs are flooded, so I put new spark plugs in and after 3 or 4 atempts bike starts, for maybe 30 sesonds it sound really awfull but sudenly sound goes OK and it runs smoothly again. I took it for the ride, it goes well as before, so I parked it in the garage with good feeling I just stupidly flooded it by myself. It was few weeks ago, during which I made just regular maintenance. After that I want to start it and same scenario as before - bike starts but immediatelly stalls and can´t be start at any way, so same situation as before (all story is written here).

I take ST100 repair guide and make step by step troubleshooting, now I am at this point:

Bike can´t start and spark plugs are wet.
1. Carb flooded
2. Choke closed (I don ´t understand this one)
3. Throttle valve open
4. Air cleaner dirty

So from my point of view is everything pointing to idle jets.
But first I am going to test spark, I bought new iridium ones today.

 

[Larry Fine]

It sounds like it needs to be ridden a few dozen miles.

 

[ST_SVK]

@Larry Fine: you have no idea how I´d like to.

 

[Tenmilsocket]

If I was in your situation I also would want to go through the carbs and give them a good cleaning. Not only could something be dirty and sticking closed or open but you never know if someone has been in there before you and done something stupid to "give it more power".

 

[afrymoyer]

I take ST100 repair guide and make step by step troubleshooting, now I am at this point:

Bike can´t start and spark plugs are wet.
1. Carb flooded
2. Choke closed (I don ´t understand this one)
3. Throttle valve open
4. Air cleaner dirty

So from my point of view is everything pointing to idle jets.
But first I am going to test spark, I bought new iridium ones today.

If the slow speed/pilot circuits were plugged, the engine would start and run good on full choke, then stall when you shut down the choke. You're getting plenty of fuel and keep fouling out new spark plugs. You've gotta start someplace else, so I strongly suggest that you start doing diagnostics on the ignition system. Plug resistor caps, high tension leads, coil resistance checks, coils properly grounded, 12V+ terminals at the coils AND everything else involved with the ignition system. Such as the kill switch, side stand switch and bank angle sensor, etc...
Is the bike getting full electrical power? Battery good and terminals clean and tight? Is the main ground clean and tight? ALL fuses clean? Main fuse? Power distribution wiring from the main fuse/starter relay in good shape? Start with the stupid and easy check Stuff first...

 

[Andrew Shadow]

You mentioned that it has been flooded several times through this process. I have no idea how badly it was flooded but check your engine oil, it costs you nothing to do.
When an engine is badly flooded, liquid gasoline gets past the piston rings and ends up in the crankcase saturating the engine oil. If the oil is saturated enough, the engine will never start without changing the oil. There is just to high a concentration of gas vapour everywhere adding more fuel to the mix that the carburetors are already delivering. The engine can't start and just floods even more. This is easy to check on an engine with a dipstick but not so easy with a sight glass. One thing that you can do is check to see if your engine oil level is much higher than it should be, and much higher than where it normally is. If it is, the extra volume in the crankcase might be an indication of liquid gas contaminating the engine oil.

 

[ST_SVK]

afrymoyer: battery is still on charger, and in good condition. Only thing which I was doing so far was checking the red socket on starter solenoid (red wire bypass issue - it was done by some previous ovner, also socket looks pretty good). There was just an oxidation, so I cleaned it and put socket back on. You are right about ignition coils, but to this moment I don´t know how to get to them, they are literally buried down on place, where I can somehow get to only 1 coil for cylinders 1 and 3. I will also check all grounds, I did absolutely nothing with electricity so far, but that doesn´t mean, everything is OK. I have also battery out just to clean contacts, and thats all.

Are there any important "grounds" on bike besides main ground from battery?

1. I know location of bank angle sensor (right fairing), I can disconect it and check its function, as I understant, it´s only a standard switch.
2. Kill switch is working - everytime I turn it on and off it starts fuel pump inside fuel tank - but I can disasemble it and clean it (as I do with turn signal switch, it was sticky, now it works smooth)
3. Side stand switch - I only know, that is flash "S" on instrument cluster when it is down, when it is down and you put gear it shuts engine. But it has also second position when it is up. Also try to clean and just measure as ordinary switch?

I will check electricity and write down some values which I will measure.

 

[ST_SVK]

You mentioned that it has been flooded several times through this process. I have no idea how badly it was flooded but check your engine oil, it costs you nothing to do.
When an engine is badly flooded, liquid gasoline gets past the piston rings and ends up in the crankcase saturating the engine oil. If the oil is saturated enough, the engine will never start without changing the oil. There is just to high a concentration of gas vapour everywhere adding more fuel to the mix that the carburetors are already delivering. The engine can't start and just floods even more. This is easy to check on an engine with a dipstick but not so easy with a sight glass. One thing that you can do is check to see if your engine oil level is much higher than it should be, and much higher than where it normally is. If it is, the extra volume in the crankcase might be an indication of liquid gas contaminating the engine oil.

I just changed oil to fresh one.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

I just changed oil to fresh one.

After it was flooded, or before?

 

[ST_SVK]

@Andrew Shadow: After. That was no smell of gasoline from oil, I have it still in the bottle, so I can check if they are 2 separate layers of fluid. Oil change was last thing which I do, after that I want to start engine and than check level again, but you know the story

But first, I am really going through electrical system, I will measeru everything from battery to spark plugs and I will see, if all values are up to standards.

 

[afrymoyer]

afrymoyer: battery is still on charger, and in good condition. Only thing which I was doing so far was checking the red socket on starter solenoid (red wire bypass issue - it was done by some previous ovner, also socket looks pretty good). There was just an oxidation, so I cleaned it and put socket back on. You are right about ignition coils, but to this moment I don´t know how to get to them, they are literally buried down on place, where I can somehow get to only 1 coil for cylinders 1 and 3. I will also check all grounds, I did absolutely nothing with electricity so far, but that doesn´t mean, everything is OK. I have also battery out just to clean contacts, and thats all.

Are there any important "grounds" on bike besides main ground from battery?

1. I know location of bank angle sensor (right fairing), I can disconect it and check its function, as I understant, it´s only a standard switch.
2. Kill switch is working - everytime I turn it on and off it starts fuel pump inside fuel tank - but I can disasemble it and clean it (as I do with turn signal switch, it was sticky, now it works smooth)
3. Side stand switch - I only know, that is flash "S" on instrument cluster when it is down, when it is down and you put gear it shuts engine. But it has also second position when it is up. Also try to clean and just measure as ordinary switch?

I will check electricity and write down some values which I will measure.

You can easily test the coils and resistor plug caps while on the bike. However, It's best to remove and clean / dielectric paste the coil mounts for a good ground. It does make a difference. The coils are right in front of the carbs. It can be a little tricky to get them out, but they can be removed in less than a half hour. Check ALL connections while in there! Especially the the coil female spade connectors that power and ground the coils. The crimps are known to fail!

There are two main grounds on the bike. The battery negative cable just above the oil filter, and the main ground just behind the seat release key assy attached to the frame(all the green wires). This ground needs to be removed, wire brushed, pasted and reassembled. On all my bikes, I've added a 12G wire jumper from the main ground to the battery negative terminal.

The side stand switch and the bank angle sensor, while seldom fail, they do. They can be bypassed temporarily for troubleshooting to rule them out.

 

[ST_SVK]

Thank you! Today I spend 4 hours measuring and checking all electrical things and I also found a problem (really basic one in the end).

I checked both ground points (engine + seat lock position), cleaned everything and assemble back. Also tighten every screw I found.
After that I start measuring coils. They have both great values, exactly as manufacturer prescribed.

But then when I move with spark plug cable and all resistance have lost. Then when I start wiggling with end of cable resistance starts to move around Mohms and after that it lost. So I know what to do - spark cap is deffective - 4th cylinder I checked also cables and they have good values, so I only need to buy 2 new caps and I hope bike will start finally.

This brings me this knowledge:

1. I found great forum with plenty of great people!
2. I learn a lot of about bike within 1 week thanks to all troubleshooting.
3. Anyone who designed these bikes really knows the stuff, from the maintenance point of view.

This is it

 

[ST_SVK]

One extra thing - front left brake caliper or disc position. It looks, like brake disc is about 2-3 milimetres out from wheel (or caliper 2-3 milimetres in), or how to descibe it. Simply it is not sitting in the middle of caliper, also I can see, that they were in contact in the past and caliper holder was "grinding" the disc.

Did someone see something like that? Wheel is spinning and bike is braking, but I don´t like the position.

Here on pictures you can see, that the rings which holds two parts of brake disc together are sligthly grinded, on the second picture you can see position of parts.

 

[kiltman]

Check the front wheel axle that the collar part #4 in the diagram is properly installed. If it isn’t it can cause misalignment of the brake calliper.

 

[ST_SVK]

Thanks, I forget to mention, that other side (right calliper) is perfectly in the middle. So only left side looks that something isn´t on its place. But I´ll check if all parts of front axle are in place.

 

[Larry Fine]

A brake rotor will "move" away from the pistons as the pads on both sides wear.

Do make sure that it's not from excess wear on only the non-piston side pads.

 

[ST_SVK]

I have new pads and everything.

But there is holder of brake calliper, which is mounted directly on shock absorber and that is not moving at all - brake disc is not centered inside this part (I don ´t know how to call it properly). So thats why I think that brake disk have to be somehow off.

I will check first, if all components of wheel axle are assembled properly. But honestly, I don´t understand this, why only one side is off.

 

[afrymoyer]

But then when I move with spark plug cable and all resistance have lost. Then when I start wiggling with end of cable resistance starts to move around Mohms and after that it lost. So I know what to do - spark cap is deffective - 4th cylinder I checked also cables and they have good values, so I only need to buy 2 new caps and I hope bike will start finally.

Personally, you'd be better off purchasing 4 NEW plug caps and replace them all. They're only $25 each (USA). Don't just do half the job...

Just think... Once you get the startability sorted out, then you get to check and set the valve clearances!

 

[ST_SVK]

afrymoyer: yeah, you are right. First I want to start bike and know, that sorted my problem. After that, I will change all of them, I can´t risk failure this stupid on the road.

Why do you think I have to set valve clearances? Or just part of preventive maintenance?

 

[dwalby]

But then when I move with spark plug cable and all resistance have lost. Then when I start wiggling with end of cable resistance starts to move around Mohms and after that it lost. So I know what to do - spark cap is deffective - 4th cylinder I checked also cables and they have good values, so I only need to buy 2 new caps and I hope bike will start finally.

Did you check the resistance of the cap itself after removing it from the wire?

the caps screw into the end of the plug wire, did you verify that the cap is actually bad, as opposed to just not screwed into the wire securely? Takes just a minute to cut a small piece off the end of the wire (not too much just a few mm), screw it back in, and recheck the resistance.