Sadlsor
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This is true.
What's not included in that truism, is there are times when to complete a job correctly, more than one tool *may* be required.
Yay!
And who couldn't use another tool?
Article [13] ST1300 - Brake Maintenance - Getting all the air out of the brake system
- Thread starter jfheath
- Start date
What's not included in that truism, is there are times when to complete a job correctly, more than one tool *may* be required.
Yay!
And who couldn't use another tool?
A better way to be happy with the results....?
Maybe. But works well if you know how to use it. Results I was happy with (which is of course still far from nirvanic euphoria from a Igofarded bleed).
Pick a weekend and ride over to Arizona and I will bleed your brakes for you, and if they are not better than when you did them with your method, it’s free.
And, I’ve always got have a dozen MP check valves in the tool box if you want to learn how to do it much easier, with less mess, and nothing to clean up afterwards.
What have you got to loose?
And, I’ve always got have a dozen MP check valves in the tool box if you want to learn how to do it much easier, with less mess, and nothing to clean up afterwards.
What have you got to loose?
Not my method. Never used Vacuum on the ST myself. MP only.
The old now retired mechanic was the one using vacuum (no hand activated pump, but air pressure operated vacuum pump with continuous sustained vacuum). And so was a local dealer way back then when they were still selling STs.
I am sure I'd be elated with an Igofar supervised bleed. My own bleeds don't feel too bad either....but start feeling mushy 500 miles down the road. Not so with the mechanic's bleeds.
The fluid you start with can also make a difference as there is a range on allowable air in solution. If you are unlucky and start with air on top of the range, brakes that are rock solid at sea level can turn scary mushy over a 14er (same with clutch). And solid again once back at sea level.
Along these lines, an AZ bleed at close to 3000 ft is bound to feel pretty good at my sea level.....
People who really care will syringe degas the fluid before injecting into the master reservoir (just pouring from the container can entrain more air). Top racing will pull a vacuum on their fluid prior use to reduce dissolved air and moisture. There are reasons why vacuum makes sense.
I truly appreciate your offer as we all know there is no better bleed than an Igofar bleed. But that would be the difference between being very happy with the brakes and being very very happy with the brakes; Reaching the point of diminishing returns...while there are other things needing close attention on the bike.
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Hello. I want to share how I would put the brake fluid using positive pressure in order to drag all the bubbles out with more ease than using vacuum. It's easier to push bubbles, as that compress them, than pull them, which expand those. That's why I though of a tool for pushing the brake fluid with some good pressure and speed, not such high pressure but good speed, as it's more valuable for dragging bubbles out of places where those could be stuck. Check the pictures, it's self-explanatory. All parts can be find in AliExpress, and using that nice valve for stopping backflow that you can buy also there, that's all you need for the task I think.
PD: Have in mind that you need to pair the thread of the banjo and the spigot adaptor. I used a M10x1 thread in both. You have also M10x1.25 sizes, so be sure to match both. Our bikes use M10x1.25 but I'm not sure if the spigot adaptor came in that size. You could use the original banjo bolt if you find that adaptor in that size.
PD: Have in mind that you need to pair the thread of the banjo and the spigot adaptor. I used a M10x1 thread in both. You have also M10x1.25 sizes, so be sure to match both. Our bikes use M10x1.25 but I'm not sure if the spigot adaptor came in that size. You could use the original banjo bolt if you find that adaptor in that size.
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Thanks for the contribution. I have read/heard that that is how some 'professional' mechanics do the job. I have thought about it but I have not been able to come up with an answer to this question: How does the rear caliper circuit cope with the one way valve in the SMC - which is designed specifically to prevent fluid from flowing back through the system - except through the three tiny compensation ports.
Good question. Notice that this idea push the flow from the master cylinder, not backwards. So it would flow in the correct way in order to surpass that valve. Maybe could need a bit of a rushed push to pass it, but should do it with no problem as it would be in favour of it and not against it. It requires to dissasemble the banjo connector and to connect the device to it. The remaining bubbles should get up to the main brake fluid container, so shouldn't be hard to take out just those after flushing all the circuit and connecting again the banjo thing to the master cylinder, which should be filled up and then those last bubbles should come up from that banjo connector and hose.
I bought one of these at KMS Tools to remove most of the fluid from the reservoirs prior to bleeding, no sense starting a flush with a shot of two year old fluid even if it looks clean.
Pulls a good vacuum and might work well as a pump but would need two sets of hands.
Pulls a good vacuum and might work well as a pump but would need two sets of hands.
OP
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No - I didn't notice that. That is different. But I thought that you said you were pushing the bubbles up ?? That's why I assumed that the pressure was being applied at the bleed valve.
I did have such a kit once, but it didn't provide the means to pressurise a bike style reservoir - so I could never use it. But the master cylinder provides a considerable amount of pressure.
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Master cylinder provides a brutal 250 bar pressure, but it's useless as it only moves like 20 ml forward AND BACK. With this you move 100 ml forward and can take out the syringe and fill it again to put another 100ml more without backing movements. More flow and speed with a big manual syringe, no need for high pressure but just a good positive one for getting speedy bubbles so they came out easier.
I said and thought before about pushing the bubbles up, that's right. But because that valve you mention is that I thought about this other method, even if I should push them down. If I get enough speed wouldn't be a problem to drag them down.
I just got the idea of making a continuous cyclical flow of brake fluid using just one more flushing valve (two valves) and this syringe. Could be great, pushing fluid in one end and taking back the bubbly fluid to the clean fluid deposit so you make it get all out fast without running out of clean fluid.
Anyway, I'm showing results in the future.
Fantastic manual, thank you very much. I am in the middle of this now and wasn't sure of the sequence.A detailed look at the process of getting the air out of the Honda ST1300 brake lines. A sequence of diagrams of the brake circuits, colour coded to show which parts of the system are being accessed when each bleed valve is opened and explanations of where the trouble spots are.
These are just small thumbnail images of some of the pages. Load the attached pdf to get the full document.
Prior to that, it is worth taking a look at a couple of videos. I had a picture in my head of how the bubbles would behave - that bubble would collect together at the highest point of the line and that if I pumped the lever fast enough that would take the bubbles with it.
I was surprised at how wrong I was.
First - a sealed jar of water coloured with black ink. I was blowing steadily into a tube fed into the jar, pushing the fluid down the tube. I am pointing out the location of trapped bubbles. Sorry - no commentary. I cannot talk and blow at the same time !
And another, this time sucking on a long tube on the left of the video as the fluid negotiates an 'n' shaped bend. I am sucking continuously all the time the video is playing - the fluid looks static in one or two places, but it is actually flowing through that long vertical air bubble. The video stops as the fluid is about to reach my mouth.
Click the link below to download the pdf file.
Having trouble getting the Circlip to stay in the SMC, popped out twice. :-( - would you have any advice on that?
The SMC circlip is a bit tricky. You may need three hands. As you hold the whole thing, you should PUSH the washer holding all together down, as it has like a step on it that avoids the circlip to be "open" to the insides. So you should push that washer first, then press the circlip, then take it out, all while you hold down that washer. Then all opens up. Good luck.
EDIT: I just noticed what you are saying, I just misunderstood the thing. You could try open that circlip so it gets its good shape again, if not, check if the step where it gets holded is rounded up. If it is, bad news, as it's getting out because the "step" is damaged. If not, it could be that the circlip is not pressing against the wall, so it gets out by itself. Hope this helps. Good luck again.
woodybelle
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I am not familiar with that particular circlip but some circlips have a flat side and a rounded side. If so the flat side should be facing out towards you.
OP
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That circlip is a pain to get at, and even more difficult to get back in.
I describe what I do in the link below - but it us something that the manual tells you not to do. But taking care, and some measurements beforehand, it is something that works for me.
www.st-owners.com
I describe what I do in the link below - but it us something that the manual tells you not to do. But taking care, and some measurements beforehand, it is something that works for me.
Article [13] - ST1300 - Brake Maintenance - SMC Boot Fitting - A Cause of Failure ? | ST1300 Articles
The rubber boot on the ST1300 Secondary Master Cylinder is designed to keep water out. Unfortunately, since you cannot see what you are doing when fitting the rubber boot, it is entirely possible that casual maintenance can result in allowing water to be let in. I made reference to this in the...
I just put on new tires and oem brake pads all the way around. I did not do a flush and fill of the brake fluid after doing this. I have a slight rear brake drag. I looked at the rear caliper just now and saw that the front clip was not centered as it should be. SMC appears to work as it should (laying on floor test using foot) My question is, should I try to move the clip up to where it's centered in its detent position, or leave it alone? Or do what? Hoping someone with much greater knowledge will chime in.
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What is important is thata there is hardly any free space above the clip or below it. Mine is showing a certain amount of gap above the clip. It is actually the lower part of the alloy recess that has worn away. Whether or not that tage is supposed to be central, I don't know. I saw mine and it seemed a good 'at-a-glance marker.
Since observing this - I haven't done anything with it - except read the Honda manual - and in the General Information section at the start, there are all sorts of tables describing fluids and lubricants and such like. Right at the end of the table - just before the detailed drawn diagrams of cable harness and routing, there is this little snippet:
It isn't mentioned anwhere else in the manual. It certainly doesn't need to be glued in place. It has got clips to stop it falling out when pads are removed, and it cannot go anywhere when the pads are in place. The three bond 1521 is described as a high strength chloroprene rubber adhesive. My guess is that its purpose it simply to stop the clip rubbing against the metal alloy of the caliper bracket and wearing it down.
@Igofar has a photo which shows more significant wear - which I have pinched and copied here. This can result in the caliper bracket twisting each time the brakes are applied which can lead to constant drag at the rear brakes. One tell-tale symptom of this is the james bond gun bore rifling.Mine hadn't got to that stage, even with that large gap - and it didn't get any worse once I had glued the clip into position. This was my old bike. My 'new' one (now 11 years old and at 72,000 miles, has no such gap - but at the first tyre change (@5,000 miles) I glued that clip into place.
Your clip has got a small gap at the top, so from the photo, it looks as though it is starting to wear - but it doesn't look as bad as mine - although the clip looks to be in a smilair position - Photo parallax might account for that.
You have just put in new pads. My new pads always drag when they have just been fitted - nothing that you can feel on the road, and nothing that gets the disks too hot to touch. Just a gentle Sssshhhh, as I push it around the garage. After I have left the bike a week or two, that develops in a resonating howl - purely as a result of the surface rust that gathers on the brake disc surface. The bike moves easily when I have just brought it in from a ride.
If it is a niggle, then get a new bracket while they are still available. But that small gap wouldn't niggle with me. I'd glue it in place as it should be, and be keep an eye open for the symptoms. My tyres get changed every 5,000 miles, and I often clean up the brakes every 2-3,000 miles.
Note that the clip is not glued in place on a new bike. I got a new SMC caliper bracket once and that clip wasn't glued in either.
In the UK, 3-bond products are available, apparently - I've never noticed them if they are. I used UHU Extreme repair - which seems to be similar - a high strength, ploymer 'rubber' adhesve flexible, resistant to shock, water, heat and UV. It seems to work for me.
Having said all of that, if your brakes are not releasing and you can find no other cause for it, then the rear caliper bracket is certainly a contender.
But - you have also installed your pads at the front. Pads at the front should not have the white heat shields fitted. THey have the thin chrome anti-squeal plate fitted to the pad backing plates - but they must not have a thin white pad shaped insert between the chrome and the backing plate. Only the rear pads have that.
You might have had the wheel out - so make sure that you put it back and tightened everything up IN THE CORRECT ORDER.
Check whether your front braks are dragging a little.
All of the above may be the reason for rear brake drag. If the front left drags, that will apply the rear brakes. So with any rear wheel drag, it is always wise to eliminate the front left brake caliper as the cause. (ANd if you are wondering why the order of tightening the front wheel matters - it is because the left caliper is on the left fork leg. The left fork leg should be free to move about on the axle when the axle bolt is tightened. After bouncing the forks, it should end up with the axle end flush with the face of the fork leg at the axle bolt hole. Only then are the left hand bolts tightened to clam the fork leg. So if the spacers are out of position, the wrong way round, or if the axle was tightened with the left pinch bolts clamping the axle, or they were not released to bounce the forks afterward - then the left fork leg will be out of position, which means the left caliper will be out of position, which means the left front brake will drag, which means amongst other things, that I have just wasted a load of time talking about the rear caliper.
I'm just laughing to myself. One of my first attempts at servicing the brakes on the 1100 resulted in odd brake behaviour. It had to be something that I did. I had to take it back home after riding less than a quarter mile. I put it into the garage, sat on the stool looking at the left hand side, head in hands. What the hell has gone wrong. What have I done that wasn't correct ?
Then something caught my eye. What the hell is that ? Something that didn't look right. I'd not seen it before. I took my long nose pliers and grabbed hold of it, and pulled out a loose woven cloth - a rag which I had been using and absent mindedly placed on top of the mudguard. It had fallen onto the caliper and was jammed between the brake pads and the brake disc. I had to drop the pads out to get all of it out.
So add to reasons for rear brake drag: Rag left on top of front mudguard.
Sadlsor
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Wow, Mr. Heath, what an incredible reply. Yes, new front and rear tires installed. I am very glad to read that when first changed the rear pads are likely to drag a little. I did my very best to follow your procedures in installing the tires and new brake pads, as well as reading everything I could from Igofar regarding the same. I did not observe any damage to the rear brake stopper bolt when it was out, and I did not torque it until after tourquing the rear axle. I hope that was correct. If all goes well this issue will self correct very soon. Thanks so much for the time it took to respond. Cheers from NC!
Since observing this - I haven't done anything with it - except read the Honda manual - and in the General Information section at the start, there are all sorts of tables describing fluids and lubricants and such like. Right at the end of the table - just before the detailed drawn diagrams of cable harness and routing, there is this little snippet:
It isn't mentioned anwhere else in the manual. It certainly doesn't need to be glued in place. It has got clips to stop it falling out when pads are removed, and it cannot go anywhere when the pads are in place. The three bond 1521 is described as a high strength chloroprene rubber adhesive. My guess is that its purpose it simply to stop the clip rubbing against the metal alloy of the caliper bracket and wearing it down.
Mine hadn't got to that stage, even with that large gap - and it didn't get any worse once I had glued the clip into position. This was my old bike. My 'new' one (now 11 years old and at 72,000 miles, has no such gap - but at the first tyre change (@5,000 miles) I glued that clip into place.
Your clip has got a small gap at the top, so from the photo, it looks as though it is starting to wear - but it doesn't look as bad as mine - although the clip looks to be in a smilair position - Photo parallax might account for that.
You have just put in new pads. My new pads always drag when they have just been fitted - nothing that you can feel on the road, and nothing that gets the disks too hot to touch. Just a gentle Sssshhhh, as I push it around the garage. After I have left the bike a week or two, that develops in a resonating howl - purely as a result of the surface rust that gathers on the brake disc surface. The bike moves easily when I have just brought it in from a ride.
If it is a niggle, then get a new bracket while they are still available. But that small gap wouldn't niggle with me. I'd glue it in place as it should be, and be keep an eye open for the symptoms. My tyres get changed every 5,000 miles, and I often clean up the brakes every 2-3,000 miles.
Note that the clip is not glued in place on a new bike. I got a new SMC caliper bracket once and that clip wasn't glued in either.
In the UK, 3-bond products are available, apparently - I've never noticed them if they are. I used UHU Extreme repair - which seems to be similar - a high strength, ploymer 'rubber' adhesve flexible, resistant to shock, water, heat and UV. It seems to work for me.
Having said all of that, if your brakes are not releasing and you can find no other cause for it, then the rear caliper bracket is certainly a contender.
But - you have also installed your pads at the front. Pads at the front should not have the white heat shields fitted. THey have the thin chrome anti-squeal plate fitted to the pad backing plates - but they must not have a thin white pad shaped insert between the chrome and the backing plate. Only the rear pads have that.
You might have had the wheel out - so make sure that you put it back and tightened everything up IN THE CORRECT ORDER.
Check whether your front braks are dragging a little.
All of the above may be the reason for rear brake drag. If the front left drags, that will apply the rear brakes. So with any rear wheel drag, it is always wise to eliminate the front left brake caliper as the cause. (ANd if you are wondering why the order of tightening the front wheel matters - it is because the left caliper is on the left fork leg. The left fork leg should be free to move about on the axle when the axle bolt is tightened. After bouncing the forks, it should end up with the axle end flush with the face of the fork leg at the axle bolt hole. Only then are the left hand bolts tightened to clam the fork leg. So if the spacers are out of position, the wrong way round, or if the axle was tightened with the left pinch bolts clamping the axle, or they were not released to bounce the forks afterward - then the left fork leg will be out of position, which means the left caliper will be out of position, which means the left front brake will drag, which means amongst other things, that I have just wasted a load of time talking about the rear caliper.
I'm just laughing to myself. One of my first attempts at servicing the brakes on the 1100 resulted in odd brake behaviour. It had to be something that I did. I had to take it back home after riding less than a quarter mile. I put it into the garage, sat on the stool looking at the left hand side, head in hands. What the hell has gone wrong. What have I done that wasn't correct ?
Then something caught my eye. What the hell is that ? Something that didn't look right. I'd not seen it before. I took my long nose pliers and grabbed hold of it, and pulled out a loose woven cloth - a rag which I had been using and absent mindedly placed on top of the mudguard. It had fallen onto the caliper and was jammed between the brake pads and the brake disc. I had to drop the pads out to get all of it out.
So add to reasons for rear brake drag: Rag left on top of front mudguard.