To rebuild or upgrade 28A alternator?

yuergenb

Biking since 87'
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Nov 20, 2008
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74
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Athens, Ontario
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1995 ST1100
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7775
So my 95 ST with 28 A is leaking a small amount of oil and can't really keep up with any farkles I try to add. I was wondering if just rebuilding my existing alternator is okay considering the cost of upgrading. Are the parts still available to do a rebuild? I assume seals and rubbers etc. ? I just don't have the confidence to tackle an upgrade with mods to the larger unit. Any suggestions would be helpful.
 

wjbertrand

Ventura Highway
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I would not consider rebuilding the 28A unit. Those few that have tried it have had short-lived success. Even if the rebuild "holds" it will do nothing for the anemic output. I would strongly recommend the upgrade for about the same money and effort, the job will stay fixed.
 

sirepair

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For the effort involved to repair/refurbish the 28amp unit, you may as well go for the 40amper unless you have a good auto electronics shop near by.

If it is merely leaking oil at the wiring, then you *might* be able to get to the area where the wiring exits the housing and inject some type of epoxy/sealant in there and stop/slow the leak, but I wouldn't expect it to last without being properly cleaned and prepped, etc.

The o-rings used are available (industrial supply places should have them if Ma Honda doesn't) so that shouldn't be the issue.

But if you have to go through the trouble pulling the old one out, you may as well do the upgrade! My hand was forced when one of my 28amp windings went open, so I bit the bullet and got the 40amp. I've never looked back...

I recently bought an entire used engine with 40amp alt for LESS than a new alt/mount plates (less than most USED Alts sell for, too) so that might be something to consider, too.

The swap is well documented, and JohnO's traveling toolkit supplies all the odd-ball tools, along with GREAT instructions, that make it pretty easy for anyone mechanically inclined to do the job. Also, if there are other riders in your neighborhood, many will come and give a hand if you like.
 

docw1

Bill Rankin
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For the effort involved to repair/refurbish the 28amp unit, you may as well go for the 40amper unless you have a good auto electronics shop near by.
I wouldn't even bet on an auto electrics shop. I took a fried 40 amper to one and they wouldn't touch it. Seems they were only set up for belt-driven alternators and didn't have the equipment to test a gear-driven one.
 

Norm

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There is a strong bias toward replacing the 28 amp (actually make between 28 and 32 amps by my measurements) with a 42 amp (air cooled) which make either about 45 amps or close to 60 amps, depending on whether they are actually the 42 amp version or the 55 amp version. I just shipped another repaired "42 amp" back to the owner which looked to have been in service for a long time so would assume it was an OEM install. It made 55 amps on my test rig which cannot spin to full speed to expect it will make close to 60 amps on a bike.

There are up sides and down sides to both options as have been explored in detail many times but the correct answer depends on your own perceptions regarding risk, service endurance, output requirements, etc. There is not sufficient sample size, IMO, to understand clearly where the advantage lies. With the greatest respect and affection to postings, most are simply the extension of personal bias without a conclusion which can be defended.

Just to expand on some of the views expressed:

1) "Tick, tick, tick....your 28 amp unit is about to fail" I cannot see that this can be defended logically because there are so many 28 amp units still in operation from 1991. In the UK, the failure rate of the 42 amp type seems to exceed that of the 28 by a significant degree.

2) The 28 amp lacks sufficient power output....here's where someone will likely hoist me on my own hypocrisy because I swapped 28 to 42 soon after acquiring my 1994. I think that I understand hypocrisy quite well, having continued to practice it for so long.:eek:: the 28 amp produces more than adequate output for most users, having over 30 amps output (32 to 33 amps is typical) which allows 3 amps over my heavy lighting (100 watt high beams + 2 x 55 watt driving) so the need for more output may not be important. You need to decide but please do not do so on the basis of subtracting estimated Watts of loads from the estimated alternator output. Measure current and work from there. On the other hand, one could solve much of the electrical load problem for most users by swapping to HID headlight bulbs at much lower expense and trouble. Explore all the options before making the decision.

I recently swapped WhiSTler to HID because the headlights seem to me to be more "eye catching" than were the 100 Watt H4 bulbs even with wiring upgraded. I don't need the power conservation but changed for the other reason.

3) 28 amp "failures" generally are to two types: oil leakage from the wire grommet, and VRR connection burning. Sirepair, makes solid points regarding the refurbish problem as these units are not well understood or well supplied with replacement parts. I haven't had one apart for some time so cannot advise very much as to the problems in disassembly/reassembly. There is no question that the 42 type is better understood because it is cousin to so many automotive ND alternators.

Servicing of the external VRR wiring is critical for any motorcycle using this type of strategy and neglecting this on a 30 year old bike is certainly a ticking time bomb.

4) I think that I know of more 42 amp failures than that of 28, especially if one considers only the catastrophic failures which leave someone stranded. The 28 is actually a more advanced design in that it is sealed to contaminants.

5) I am beginning to understand the degree to which the alternator repair industry has changed since my time in the industry. It has become more difficult to obtain service to the 42 amp type than one would have expected even 10 years ago. A practical problem for a repair shop is to drive the repaired unit for testing purposes and this requires a purpose intended test rig because the unit cannot be belt driven. In retrospect, it may have been better for me to have a pulley adapted to fit the drive spline rather than using the rig but could still do that in future. The volume of repair units is tiny at this time, much smaller than ABS1 modulators, so not sure whether it would be worth the bother.

What would I do now if had a 28 amp which failed....first thing, that answer would be difficult to defend, given the small sample as said earlier so each should look to one's own wallet and biases.

Point 1, however is that the swap is not a particularly difficult exercise so that should not deter one unless it needs be done in a limited time frame.

Simply reassessing the problem with your 28 may answer your question. Is it showing some oil dampness or dripping? You may wish to try cleaning and sealing by an epoxy or silicone to see how that pans out.

What is most valuable is to hear what others have done and why they made their decision. We do lack the sample size to assist in making blanket decisions in this matter but more context from savvy people could help in that matter by improving the quality of the data which we do hold.


FWIW, the failures I usually repair on 42 amp units have been regulator, bearing, rectifier. Corrosion expansion and failure of the stator core is an not infrequent cause of catastrophic failure which usually also destroys the brush-end housing. I see these periodically. Brushes are a wear item but due to the low average alternator load, don't wear out as quickly as one might fear. There is a significant history of rotor winding failure to the 42 amp unit and this is a problem because replacement of the rotor is not an option = not available. Replacement of the rotor winding runs about $100.00 and is very specialized. There have been several excellent threads dealing with the repair, in place, of the rotor lead by die grinding, soldering and epoxy.

At this time I am wrestling with parts supply issues for the 42 amp as some of the parts have become more difficult to obtain in this market. I am exploring a bulk purchase from over seas but it is difficult to rationalize this from an economic stand-point. I repair these bike components (modulators, pumps, alternators, starters, etc.) to help others but there is no profit from which to insure against some failure which would require that I cover the cost. In addition, there is no profit or economy of scale to absorb the investment of stocking a larger parts supply so will likely just continue as is for now unless a repair fails.

The Suzuki Bandit uses what looks like the same series of alternator but cannot obtain a sample to do a direct comparison as this might be useful information for either the ST or Bandit people.

Sorry for the long tome but thought it might be of interest to throw out my appreciation of the alternator question. There will be valid differences in point of view which is good as these provide additional perspective and help me to check out my own biases.

Off to take son out to practice his riding. I plan to move him from the GS850 to the ST today so that he has another experience. He has been practicing the cone maneuvers in preparation for his parking lot learner's test and don't think I can match him. Time to get back to that task as skills erode...

The very best to all!

Norm
 

wjbertrand

Ventura Highway
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) The 28 amp lacks sufficient power output....here's where someone will likely hoist me on my own hypocrisy because I swapped 28 to 42 soon after acquiring my 1994. I think that I understand hypocrisy quite well, having continued to practice it for so long. the 28 amp produces more than adequate output for most users,

And that most users comment is key. On my '93 from new, if I got stuck in traffic for very long with frequent use of the brakes and the cooling fan cycling on and off, the battery would be discharged to the point that the ABS would sense low system voltage and go off line setting the ABS warning light blinking. This occurred with a completely stock bike, not so much as a higher watt light bulb installed. Living is SoCal, even with lane splitting allowed, those engine speeds were too low for the 28A unit to keep that battery charged. This is daily life in SoCal, so for me at least, I don't fit into the "most" category. The other group that won't fit are the heavy farklers.

When I my 28A unit eventually failed at 51K miles (due to an open on one of the primary windings) I decided to do the upgrade, I was one of the first to do so following Alan Barbic's description of the process. I immediately noticed that though maximum output is only 12A greater, there was a ton more output under the curve, starting right from idle. I noticed maximum voltage was available at much lower RPM over extended periods of low-speed running than with the 28A unit, which didn't max out until 5K RPM. I think the design of the 28A unit was better suited to a higher revving, shorter geared bike than the ST. I never again had battery discharging problems once I upgraded. The 40A upgrade was trouble free to the time I sold the bike with 150K miles on it. I also started to add more farkles after the upgrade so was asking it to work harder than I ever asked of the 28A

An additional reason to do the upgrade over replacing or repairing the 28A unit is simple economics. With its integral rectifier/regulator, upgrading to the 40A constitutes an entire charging system replacement. Replacing the 28A unit is only nominally less expensive than doing the upgrade (with respect to parts prices) and you take the chance that the separate R/R unit is OK. If not and you end up replacing it as well, staying with the 28A will cost $150-$200 more than the upgrade. The R/R alone was $175 mail order at the time I did my upgrade.

Given my experience and the economics of the matter, should one suffer a 28A failure, there is no way I would support repairing or replacing that unit. OTOH, I would not replace a 28A unit that was still functioning normally. As Norm points out, with open riding conditions and no additional accessory loads, the 28A would be fine and would probably last the life of the bike.
 

John OoSTerhuis

Life Is Good!
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It has become more difficult to obtain service to the 42 amp type than one would have expected even 10 years ago. A practical problem for a repair shop is to drive the repaired unit for testing purposes and this requires a purpose intended test rig because the unit cannot be belt driven. In retrospect, it may have been better for me to have a pulley adapted to fit the drive spline
I"ve had an adapter pulley available for loan for years, Norm. Jon Lewis, inventor of the alt upgrade Lewis-Pin tool, made it and donated it to STOC:

http://www.st-riders.net/index.php?topic=1073.0 [must be registered]

Alternator PulleyM.JPG

It's been loaned out a couple of times. Does anyone know the rpm the alt should be run at to test it properly? TIA

Regards, John
 

Norm

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Good to know about the adapter pulley, John. Thanks!

I may make one if needing additional RPM to test but since the ones I've done have shown 55 amp area, I know they're good. Question is whether it's worth the trouble to see if they make an additional 5 amps. over rated power...still pondering...

"I immediately noticed that though maximum output is only 12A greater, there was a ton more output under the curve, starting right from idle. I noticed maximum voltage was available at much lower RPM over extended periods of low-speed running than with the 28A unit, which didn't max out until 5K RPM."

I'm wondering if you did a load test of your 28 amp alternator and how many amps it actually made?

The ones I've tested have made 28 to 33 amps with most over the 31 amp if memory serves, although it's been a while. I think the RPM needed was about 3,000 so wonder if yours had issues all along?

Most of the "42 amp" alternators have actually been 55 amp and so make closer to 60 amps output with the 42 amp models making about 45 amps.

I just shipped another repaired one which made 55 amps on my test rig, as stated earlier, which is 1100 RPM.

So many ST1100's but so little data which makes me always eager to learn anything more. I was looking at a 1200 Bandit the other day which was a trade-in at a local shop. They were quite unreasonable in refusing to lend tools so I could pull the alternator in their show room to compare with an ST one. ;) Maybe they won't be looking one day.

The Bandit has a more conventional rotor shaft, having a threaded end which secures the drive by means of a nut. I'd like the loan of one for a day to see if it matches an automotive unit, just for reference. I can understand why Honda went with the spline but feel it was an unnecessary expense when they could have used an off-the-shelf rotor although the scale of their order may have made this moot. Any conspiracy theories regarding tying up parts would not sound credible to me as the number of replacement alternators could not have been expected to be very great unless they forecast ungrades.

It sounds as though there has been some success in obtaining repair in UK and since shipping isn't too great in Canada/USA I'm able to help some on this side of the pond.

HIH,

Norm
 

Norm

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I idle my bike at 1100-1200 RPM to give full output in traffic. Now can't recall the alternator gearing to engine ....have to measure.

Norm
 
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yuergenb

yuergenb

Biking since 87'
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Nov 20, 2008
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74
Location
Athens, Ontario
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1995 ST1100
STOC #
7775
Thanks for all your experience and expertise Norm. It looks like my alternator is done and now I am forced to fix/replace/repair. I am fairly handy with all my own repairs, but this upgrade is definitely a little scary.
 

kip

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Jun 5, 2012
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New Zealand
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no bike at pres
Thank you for taking the time Norm, lots of useful info here. I bought a '96 though subsequently found it was factory '95 with a 28A. I am nervous and reading all I can!

Regards

Kip
 
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