Update U Joint - Was a Bearing Issue instead

Re: Update U Joint

No, no, no... you have to get *over* 50,000 miles on them so you can get a 50k award on each *before* you total them... like Chris did with her '05!
 
Re: Update U Joint

I have been replacing u-joints both as a hobby on my personal and friend's vehicles most of my life, and professionally as a technician for close to 10 years. The most common reason I see for early u-joint failure is a joint that wasn't properly lubed at the factory. This is fairly easy to tell- look for dry rust inside the caps where the needles are (or were), rather than grease. Even a 200k mile u-joint that has been in bad weather it's whole life will show signs of grease, even if its just somewhat dry gunk inside the caps. So why wouldn't a joint be lubed at the factory? Just a guess, but maybe the machines the factory uses, with large bulk grease containers, need to have the grease refilled periodically. A few joints could get past before they notice its time to refill the grease. I don't know...just a guess. Other times, the joint may not have had the grease distributed properly, and only 2 or 3 caps got lubed. I've pulled apart joints that had 3 caps that were well lubed and still working properly, but one dry one that wore out and loosened up.

I highly doubt it has anything to do with the ST's angles of operation- front axle u-joints on 4x4 pickups (before CV joints) could last 100k+ miles, some much more than that. And look at the angles a front axle moves when the steering is turned. My wife's Jeep has 250k miles, and has all original u-joints, although one of the steering ones is starting to get a little loose and needs replacing.

Looking at the pictures the OP posted, I can see inside one of the caps, and its dry with rust stains. I would say that was a dry joint from the factory. There are no signs of there having been grease either in the cap or on the joint. Depending how hot it got it could burn some of the grease off, but there is usually some signs left. Burnt grease usually leaves a tar/rubbery residue behind, and I don't see that.

Just some thoughts.

Jim
 
Re: Update U Joint

I would have to agree with NHdlesel. While I have never messed with motorcycle u joints. Most on cars/trucks I have replaced have been due to lack of lube. And we all know how well Honda greases stuff. :rolleyes:
 
Re: Update U Joint

Interesting thread. I have two questions: Is the u-joint a serviceable item which can be lubed & inspected during a tire change or routine service at my honda service shop? What seal & boots are you referring to?
 
Re: Update U Joint

I like NewHampshireDiesel's answer too! If I was a big-time manufacturer I'd spec Krytox in the u-joints. Like Brylcreem, "A little dab'll do ya."

I'm starting to get worried about CampSTOC now. Joe heard there's going to be togas so he bought a video camera on a stick?

Also if you need a set of extra long pliers, like in Fergie's link, you can borrow Coop's. He said he uses them in the winter. Something about "many layers of clothing?" :shrug1:

Another round of applause for ST-Owners! Even though the incident rate is low we can all know now to check one more thing each time we change tires, looking/listening for a rough U-joint. :bow1:
 
Re: Update U Joint

yelsob said:
Interesting thread. I have two questions: Is the u-joint a serviceable item which can be lubed & inspected during a tire change or routine service at my honda service shop? What seal & boots are you referring to?
Click to expand...

The seals and boot are just to keep dirt and water from filling the hollow swingarm. If you have access to them it wouldn't be a bad idea to check the boot. But I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

The Honda joint, to my knowledge, is a non-serviceable item, mainly because its difficult to get to. U-joints come in two varieties: Sealed, which are pre-greased at the factory, and not greaseable without removal of not only the shaft, but the joint from the shaft; and greaseable, which can be greased with a grease gun. In order to grease a joint, you have to be able to access it; and you simply can't on the ST without disassembly.

To be honest there is nothing wrong with a quality non-greaseable u-joint. I have seen them last hundreds of thousands of miles...as long as they CAME with grease in them. I have gotten a few new, non-greaseable joints that didn't have grease in one of the caps, which I added grease to before installation. And if the owner either can't, or won't, service the greaseable joint, then he is better off with a non-greaseable joint. A non greaseable joint lasts far longer than a greaseable joint that doesn't get greased at regular intervals.

If this was a major, common problem for STs, you could disassemble the swingarm, remove the joint, and make sure there is grease in it when you first buy your bike. KLRs have this problem with the rear suspension pivots- they come with NO grease. Period. I disassembled my 2-week old KLR just to grease what the factory didn't. 17k miles later the pivots still look like new, unlike the rusty pieces most owners end up with. But because the ST joints seem to be a very uncommon problem, you would be introducing more chance of adding a problem that you didn't have before by disassembling all these bikes to check for grease, just on the off chance you might end up with one of the few that were dry.

I think this is a non-issue, nothing more than rare problems cropping up. Ride your ST, don't worry about the u-joint, and just check it out if you ever do feel a vibration. Chances are you won't.

Jim
 
Re: Update U Joint

Thanx Jim, thanx for explaining.

I've never looked at the swing arm before. Are these boots easy to view with out taking off the mufflers or tupperware, etc? Where should I look to find them. I have an '06 ST
 
Re: Update U Joint

+1 on what Jim said...

They are sealed and not serviceable from what I can tell, no grease fittings either.

It's not an easy task to remove the swingarm to inspect the u-joint and getting that stupid boot back on is the toughest part of the whole job.

This is one of those things you just really can't worry about until it happens. You can take the swingarm out and inspect yours or even replace it if you want but as Jim stated above, if they weren't greased at the factory, you might be replacing your good u-joint with a new one that might fail even sooner.

If you look at the swingarm pivot bolts on your frame... about 2 inches further is where the boot is.. it's only about 1-2 inches long when on the bike and you just can't see it well without lots of mirrors or magic... You have to remove the right side plastic, evap canister and right side engine bracket.. then, you can just see it.

The video I posted on the noise I was hearing may or may not help you... My u-joint failed in one direction... meaning one side was locked up the the side towards the rear was okay, so it wasn't tearing itself apart... it was just binding... however, it was just a matter of time.

I don't believe the boot makes a difference.. but, it may keep water from filling the 1st chamber of the swingarm and possibly getting into the 2nd chamber and if that happens, it may affect the bearings in the forward section of the final drive.. but.... I haven't seen anyone post that bearing has ever failed so I think the 2 chamber design really helps keep that from occurring.
 
Re: Update U Joint

Does any one know if the u joint is crossed drilled.I'm going to lube the splines but was thinking of drilling the u joint cap and grease it but this will only work if the u joint is drilled from yoke to yoke so all would be greased from one cap.
 
Re: Update U Joint

stmike1300 said:
Does any one know if the u joint is crossed drilled.I'm going to lube the splines but was thinking of drilling the u joint cap and grease it but this will only work if the u joint is drilled from yoke to yoke so all would be greased from one cap.
Click to expand...


Don't drill it. It's a sealed unit, drilling will probably just set you up for more problems. As mentioned before, this is really not a regular issue. check, double check, triple check. Then if anything replace.

It might be hard, but trust it to be ok...drilling will more than likely cause more problems.
 
Re: Update U Joint

Mellow said:
Sorry, I don't ride other people's bikes and I don't let others ride mine... besides, he's got a back up bike.. he just needs to put it together.
Click to expand...

Trying to,everytime I turn around I've lost something or need to order something?
 
Re: Update U Joint

If you had to... you could put it back together just without a shield... That seems to be the worse area, all that elec shield stuff.
 
Re: Update U Joint

stmike1300 said:
Does any one know if the u joint is crossed drilled.I'm going to lube the splines but was thinking of drilling the u joint cap and grease it but this will only work if the u joint is drilled from yoke to yoke so all would be greased from one cap.
Click to expand...

Mike, likely not. I don't think they would incur the expense of such a long, small cross-drilling and not use it. Just my opinion.

I closely inspected the spare u-joint I have on the shelf. Below are some pics of it with my little Victronix pocket knife shown for scale. The caps are not retained by spring clip but are permanently pressed into place (notice the small indentations making a crown-like appearance at the cap). I see no way to inspect or lube the roller pins in each bearing without machining out the shoulders that make the crown-like appearance--that risks damaging it.

There's precious little room for adding a grease zerk, both within the u-joint itself and also within the swingarm pocket that houses this ujoint. I'd think it better to have a spare u-joint and rubber boot and have them on the shelf (you'll spend $50 to $100, depending on what's available on eBay). By the time you could access the u-joint to grease it (if you were able to add a zerk), you've got so much labor in it that you might as well just change it out if it has any slop or looseness in it.

Looking close at the joint, I notice that there are two different materials sandwiched in at each bearing: a brassy colored metal and a rubber seal. In the pics of this u-joint, you can see some grease (I don't know if it is moly paste) oozing slightly from under the rubber seals. By my eye, it looks like this particular u-joint is lubed well at all 4 bearings.

As shipped to me, the splines which mate to the input and output shafts, were well coated with moly paste. There is no lateral slop whatsoever between the yokes on this one. This one is off of a 2007 with mileage unknown to me.
 

Attachments

  • C1116a ST1300 driveline u-joint.jpg
    C1116a ST1300 driveline u-joint.jpg
    124.9 KB · Views: 55
  • C1118a ST1300 driveline u-joint.jpg
    C1118a ST1300 driveline u-joint.jpg
    125.5 KB · Views: 48
  • C1122a ST1300 driveline u-joint.jpg
    C1122a ST1300 driveline u-joint.jpg
    141.1 KB · Views: 60
Re: Update U Joint

Not to mention bearing cups are like the hardest thing on earth. You'd need an EDM machine to pierce them. :D
 
Re: Update U Joint

UNTMatt said:
Interesting photo's. My used u-joint the bearings are covered with a translucent green covering of some sort.
Click to expand...

Matt, I saw one on eBay that had that same look. I just assumed it was some kind of poly film that was left on the metal caps. On yours, can it be peeled off (is there metal underneath)?
 
Re: Update U Joint

Mellow said:
If you had to... you could put it back together just without a shield... That seems to be the worse area, all that elec shield stuff.
Click to expand...

No No It will have a wind shield(even if i put the scrathed 03 origanal with some kind of makedo brackets/zipties/ducttape)
With some kind of windshield in place the under parts should be O K

And I AM GOING TO CHEAPSTOC
 
Re: Update U Joint

UNTMatt said:
I went and looked at it after I posted. It looks like green marker, highlighter, or ink of sorts. Not sure why and, yes, it looks like the one in the photo otherwise. It moves very smooth with no 'looseness' in the bearings.
Click to expand...

In many of Honda's (and other mfgs) processes, paint markers are used to indicated that a part has been checked in a process. Since these are pressed and swedged, the marks may be confirmation that a process was completed.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom