Update U Joint - Was a Bearing Issue instead

Re: Update U Joint

I'm a little lost now. If I change the U-Joint do I need to mess with the swingarm bearings too? I didn't have anyone else say they messed with the swingarm bearings?? I didn't order those parts. Now, my bike is an 03 with 38K miles, but other than the U-Joint talking to me, it rides very smooth. What are the symptoms of bad swingarm bearings???

Mellows, what did you do?
 
Re: Update U Joint

troykahack said:
I'm a little lost now. If I change the U-Joint do I need to mess with the swingarm bearings too? I didn't have anyone else say they messed with the swingarm bearings?? I didn't order those parts. Now, my bike is an 03 with 38K miles, but other than the U-Joint talking to me, it rides very smooth. What are the symptoms of bad swingarm bearings???

Mellows, what did you do?
Click to expand...


The bearings just fall out of the swing arm when you pull it out. Mine didn't feel bad so I didn't mess with them, just put them back as-is when I reinstalled the Swing arm.
 
Re: Update U Joint

My swingarm bearings fell out too; but, the one on the right was a pretty tan color (rather than looking like just machined steel like the left ones) and all the rollers were brown too.

I'd repack them at least...

Mark

P.S.
I hadn't ever done swing arm bearings either... I have done a set of tapered steering head bearings (once). I hadn't ever done *any* bearings before that.
Not hard; just a step by step thing with hammer and 'drifts' (which I had to learn the definition of before I knew they were talking about about things that looked like nail sets... :))
 
Re: Update U Joint

A set of those two swingarm bearings is another $40 plus shipping. I'll take the chance on them not being bad. What type of grease would you pack them with. I don't think the Moly 60 paste is appropriate for the bearings, only the shaft splines.

Should I put some grease on the U-Joint. In the old days (rear wheel drive cars and trucks), it was a regular maintenance item to shoot some grease into the U-Joints but they had a Zerk on them. I just find it hard to believe as high a quality i have found all Honda products, they would install a U-Joint like what we have on this bike, in a place where you can't grease them. It is two metal moving parts in contact with each other with all the horsepower and torque applied to a changing angle, and they use a dry joint?

I'm guessing I will find a problem with the boot, either cracked or out of place. I can't wait to post the pictures on the joint. I just hope it has not damaged my swingarm. I rode with my friend (who passed and left me the bike) a week before he passed and the bike made no noise. Only after we removed the bike from storage (5 months) did it make the noise on a five mile ride to my house (a day or two after help from this site because of no clutch, had to bleed the clutch).

Before I start the tear down, i will post a video like Mellows where you can hear it clunk.
 
Re: Update U Joint

troykahack said:
Should I put some grease on the U-Joint. In the old days (rear wheel drive cars and trucks), it was a regular maintenance item to shoot some grease into the U-Joints but they had a Zerk on them. I just find it hard to believe as high a quality i have found all Honda products, they would install a U-Joint like what we have on this bike, in a place where you can't grease them. It is two metal moving parts in contact with each other with all the horsepower and torque applied to a changing angle, and they use a dry joint?
Click to expand...

The joint comes as an assembly with the yokes. There isn't any way to get extra grease into where it needs to be, inside the joint cups. The joint will come pre-greased. Where this joint is, inside a housing with a boot sealing out the elements, a sealed joint should last a very long time. Any premature failures are most likely caused by a lack of grease from the factory, not use or abuse. Just a gamble, 1 in so-many thousand joints wasn't properly greased. Add up the number of STs, and consider the rarity of this failure.

Several pages back I made a comparison of greaseable vs. non-greaseable u-joints. In my opinion, and that of many mechanics I've talked with on the subject, non-greaseable joints last much longer than greaseable ones. Most newer vehicles use non-greaseable joints, and its not uncommon to find original joints in a 200k mile vehicle; and those joints are out in the elements. In the old days of greaseable joints being most common, their typical lifespan was usually 50k-100k miles.

Reading your posts, I have to do a little detective work. Joints don't fail overnight, and they usually don't fail from sitting. They wear. Have you thoroughly checked the bike to make sure there isn't another issue...maybe a critter climbed in and stored some nuts or something in where he shouldn't? Or chewed something that is now making noise? I'd do a thorough visual inspection before tearing into this.

Jim
 
Re: Update U Joint

Troykahack, PM sent. tools on there way. Most swingarm bearing light clean up and repack with a good grade grease. I use marine bearing grease.
I also have bearing driver and pilot for the rear flange outer bearings. Those are the 1's you throw away after every tire change.
Just to let U know. the bearing are not packed when they come from HONDA parts. Unless they are of the sealed type.
The 2 flange bearing needed to be packed before U install them.
If your universal joint is bad? can I have it? let me know. thanks Bob

not a lot of miles on bike. pull rear brake pin remove rear brake pads. spin wheel still click? remove drive flange. install with rubber cushions remove also. put wheel back on bike fitted up to drive gear U got to hold it there, spin wheel. Any noise? I would try this first. It really helps when U have help. I call my wife when i need help. She HEARS everything!!
 
Re: Update U Joint

Mostly agree with you Jim. You are better off leaving a non-greasable joint alone. I was more curious if one could be made greasable for those that might have higher mileage, that could put a better quality grease in there such as titanium dioxide or moly or Krytox for those little needle bearings. But it's a cost/benefit thing. Once you have higher mileage, it's just simple to get a spare U-joint and perhaps even swap it out as a preventative measure. But then, me being me, would want to find out how to re-grease the old one and keep it around as a spare..... just me.

I would think it more important to have the splines greased so the U-joint can move freely, so there aren't stresses on the bearings during suspension movement. If the U-joint is binding on the splines, it will translate to stress on the bearings, thus premature failure. Binding might not occur until higher mileage, which is when the failures occur. And of course, wear is a factor. Mostly one wouldn't look at it, but I would recommend greasing the splines at some interval, say at valve check intervals, e.g. But, you could ignore it and be lucky too as it will not likely fail early in life.
 
Re: Update U Joint

Hey there Ray. I pulled my bike apart at 66k Just for the heck of it. U know Winter X. Looked good cleaned and applied Moly to splines.
Bike has 110k on it now. Will check it this Winter. Boot was good this X will replace with new.
I want the U joint to make a final drive tool. It's the only 1 don't have. Not that i need it (hope not).
See u on the road. Come on down to the BRG?
Bob
 
Re: Update U Joint

Bob, I'll send you the U-Joint if I find it to be defective. Thanks for all your help.
 
Re: Update U Joint

Ok, parts are here, most tools are here. Going to buy a few odd and end tools and stuff. Hope to start mid-week. How would you suggest i photograph/video the before/during/after shots with the video and noise. I have an IPhone 4 or a SLR that shoots video in HD. Should i upload the video with sound to youtube and then link to it?

One other thing, is there any short cuts from the procedure in the Service Manual or follow it word for word. Didn't know if there were any steps you need not perform and can still replace the U-Joint without a problem.

Thanks
 
Re: Update U Joint

Troy,

Wth the engine off is perfectly normal to hear a clunking noise when moving the rear wheel back in forth when in neutral. The noise gets a little louder if you slip it into gear. What we are hearing is the play or lash being taken up in all the associated parts in line. With the bike on the centerstand and the engine idling in gear there will be a irregular clunking noise as the wheel turns. These are all normal noises. The clunking noises with the bike idling in gear can give you the willies but if you introduce any load or drag on the rear wheel by dragging a little brake the noise disappears as all the lash is taken up in the gearbox and drive shaft.

I sincerely doubt there is one iota of problem in a low mileage bike like yours. If you can get with another owner to listen to his bike or go to a dealer with one and listen to the clunking a showroom new bike makes you may shelve the parts for another 60,000 miles or more.

The symptoms Mellow had were a clicking and an over-center type of motion when turning the rear wheel by hand with transmission in neutral.
 
Re: Update U Joint

troykahack said:
Ok, parts are here, most tools are here. Going to buy a few odd and end tools and stuff. Hope to start mid-week. How would you suggest i photograph/video the before/during/after shots with the video and noise. I have an IPhone 4 or a SLR that shoots video in HD. Should i upload the video with sound to youtube and then link to it?

One other thing, is there any short cuts from the procedure in the Service Manual or follow it word for word. Didn't know if there were any steps you need not perform and can still replace the U-Joint without a problem.

Thanks
Click to expand...

The manual is dead-on with the procedure. You have to disconnect the O2 sensor connectors in order to feed them back through the center of the swingarm and pull it. The left O2 sensor on mine was assembled in a way there were hard brake lines in the way that I couldn't easily loosen so I had to heat up the area around that O2 sensor and unscrew it from there. That was the only step in the manual that didn't work exactly the way it should have.

As mentioned in other posts in this thread, that darn rubber boot may end up being easy or hard.

As far pics, since this is your 1st time doing this, take as many as you can while you're doing it. You can always add text or pointers etc later. Good luck.
 
Re: Update U Joint

dduelin said:
Troy,

Wth the engine off is perfectly normal to hear a clunking noise when moving the rear wheel back in forth when in neutral. The noise gets a little louder if you slip it into gear. What we are hearing is the play or lash being taken up in all the associated parts in line. With the bike on the centerstand and the engine idling in gear there will be a irregular clunking noise as the wheel turns. These are all normal noises. The clunking noises with the bike idling in gear can give you the willies but if you introduce any load or drag on the rear wheel by dragging a little brake the noise disappears as all the lash is taken up in the gearbox and drive shaft.

I sincerely doubt there is one iota of problem in a low mileage bike like yours. If you can get with another owner to listen to his bike or go to a dealer with one and listen to the clunking a showroom new bike makes you may shelve the parts for another 60,000 miles or more.

The symptoms Mellow had were a clicking and an over-center type of motion when turning the rear wheel by hand with transmission in neutral.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your thoughts. The bike, under normal driving conditions with myself on it, it has a loud clunking noise, more so when i make throttle changes. I can almost feel it in the seat. Of course, it also does as you say, on the center stand in both N and in gear. In gear, it is very loud on the center stand and feels sloppy in the rear wheel, with motor off, louder than Mellow's demonstration. On the center stand, with motor running, in gear, it will clunk or rattle at idle speed in all gears, is sounds as if metal to metal is hitting. I inherited this bike from a friend who passed, it sat for 5 months in a open shed until court order allowed me to secure it. I road with my friend a two weeks before he passed and I do not ever recall hearing this sound. When I first got on the bike and started to ride it the 5 miles home, and heard the clunk for the first time, I said right away, it sounded like an old rear wheel drive u-joint from my early years. I had to prove to my young son in law, that indeed this bike had a u-joint, as he didn't know what one was. Let me try to video the sound soon. I wish it was something else, and other thoughts?

Thanks, Troykahack
 
Re: Update U Joint

I will also try to apply the brake to see if this reduces the sound. But my son in law could hear the sound following me in his truck to my house. He told me when I got to my house he heard a bad noise. I wasn't sure I should continue to drive it home. When i would hit the throttle, it would clunk, same when i let off throttle. I have serviced the bike, changed all the oil and gear oil, without any help. It now has been sitting for about a month in my garage and the sound is not as loud as it was that first day i drove it home, but i have not put any load on the rear wheel as it as been on the center stand since i brought it home. Let me try to get a quick Iphone 4 video of the noise with the motor on, in N, in gear, and the with motor on, in N, and then in gear.

Thanks, Troykahack (Rory)
 
Re: Update U Joint

Ok, Not sure if this is how you do this, but here is a link to youtube with a combination of three short video clips that i put together, the first one is with the bike in N on center stand, the second part is with bike in gear on center stand, and the last part is the bike running and in gear. Please watch the entire video as there is a pause in the last part while the motor is running where i applied too much brake and killed the motor. The last part is where the noise is louder as i am holding my IPhone up higher. I really believe this is a bad ujoint, but i really don't want to tear into it if not. The noise and clunking is very noticeable when riding the bike. As i stated, my son in law could hear the noise from behind me while following in his truck. I have the parts ready to replace the UJoint. Again, just a few things needed to pick up.

Dduelin, I notice you indicate you are from Florida. I am also in Florida in North Brevard, just a 30 miles south of Daytona. Are you located anywhere close to that area? I suspect you are up in the Jacksonville area and much too far to stop by. Anyway, here is the link to youtube, if it is possible to post on this site. Again, thanks for all the help. Troykahack (Rory)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWQfo8FLujg

[video=youtube;pWQfo8FLujg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWQfo8FLujg[/video]
 
Re: Update U Joint

Yup, sure sounds like u-joint slop to me...
 
Re: Update U Joint

Applying the front brake when the bike isn't moving does not apply any rear brake. Did you press the rear brake pedal in the video? Running the bike in gear on the center stand like that does produce ugly sounds even on a new ST1300. Those sounds would not be unusual if the rear brake does not load the drive train.

I might could come down and see you tomorrow. PM me your street address and a phone number.
 
Re: Update U Joint

That's what I heard on my bike around St Louis,constant rattle by the time i got to Joplin think it was all U-Joint,alot louder when joint was hitting inside of swingarm when I got to mcalester.
 
Re: Update U Joint

Rory, take the rear wheel off bike. replace just the axle secure but do not torque. start and listen?
Also cheap mechanic stepascope. place a long blade screwdriver up & down drive line and listen with your ear on plastic handle. U can really pin point the area.
That noise is not normal for sure on any bike. I wish I had some X and Money for travel? would come down and help U. sorry.
If the rear brake pin is not torque U will get a noise much like that? 14mm socket=51 ft # torque.
Bike sat a X? Clutch plates will stick. yes, not all it only takes 2. Clutch cage will sound very noisy. Listen at front of bike. Hey U got the manual.
BoB
 
Re: Update U Joint

Ok, it is hard to video the bike while riding, but it makes the same noise while riding. You mention the clutch, at first, I had no clutch, or I mean clutch was engaged and when bike was put in 1st geat, it took off. LOL I read up on this forum, and bleed the clutch, also let the bike warm up, and shook it back and forth to ensure clutch plates were covered in oil. After bleeding the clutch and installing new brake fluid (clutch dot 4), the clutch began to work. I will try the things mentioned. Also, is it a good idea to go ahead and change the rear brake pads at this time or is that a project for later? The bike has 38K miles.

The question was asked, did i apply rear brakes. In the last part of the video, you can see the brake light come on, that is when i applied rear brake, too much rear brake and the motor died of course. The noise was still there. If this was an old rear wheel drive clunker, I would say from the get go it was a U-Joint. But, this is the first shaft drive bike I have owned, so I just want to be sure. I will try the old noise stick trick too. I think the sound is coming near the center of the bike and traveling down the drive shaft and appears to radiate from the rear wheel area but will use the stick. No real noise from front of bike. Again, thanks for all the help.

I can take the rear wheel off but it will not be until Wed. I had both shoulders repaired this past year due a a bad jump while in the 101st Airborne, so I'm not cleared yet to lift the weight of my rear wheel but my son in law plans to help me this Wed. Plus, I need to get some more tools today and tomorrow.

Rory (Troykahack)
 
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