acedantinne
Site Supporter
Re: Update U Joint
Ok for Wed. I will check in later.
BoB
Ok for Wed. I will check in later.
BoB
Update U Joint - Was a Bearing Issue instead
- Thread starter Gandolkf
- Start date
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2006
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- Jacksonville
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- GL1800 R1200RT NC700
- 2025 Miles
- 008576
Re: Update U Joint
When I go home today I ran my bike on the stand the same way as Rory did. I suggest anyone interested to do the same.
Revving the bike up and down in first gear thru third gear ( I didn't go higher than that ) will create the same or similar noises on your bike. I think it is because on the road there are acceleration (thrust) and drag forces that do not allow the wheel to rock back and forth on the splines and back and forth in the U joint the same way they do with no load on the drive train. Thrust and drag dampen the rocking and clunking to that is attributable to normal play or lash.
Rory and I are going to check the bike out throughly tomorrow. If it does the noises under a steady load or when riding that is a horse of a different color.
A few years ago there was a similar thread and I checked my bike like that then and my bike made similar noises 50,000 or more miles ago as it makes now at 96,000 so my mind is eased about my bike.
When I go home today I ran my bike on the stand the same way as Rory did. I suggest anyone interested to do the same.
Revving the bike up and down in first gear thru third gear ( I didn't go higher than that ) will create the same or similar noises on your bike. I think it is because on the road there are acceleration (thrust) and drag forces that do not allow the wheel to rock back and forth on the splines and back and forth in the U joint the same way they do with no load on the drive train. Thrust and drag dampen the rocking and clunking to that is attributable to normal play or lash.
Rory and I are going to check the bike out throughly tomorrow. If it does the noises under a steady load or when riding that is a horse of a different color.
A few years ago there was a similar thread and I checked my bike like that then and my bike made similar noises 50,000 or more miles ago as it makes now at 96,000 so my mind is eased about my bike.
troykahack
Re: Update U Joint
This is an awesome site. I can't believe all the super help I have received from the supporters of this site. Dduelin will be here tomorrow and hopefully we can put my noise to bed, one way or the other. First ACE sends me the tools for the Swingarm and also a Service Manual and Dduelin will be here tomorrow to help me diagnose my mystery sound. I think I will up my support to the site.
This is an awesome site. I can't believe all the super help I have received from the supporters of this site. Dduelin will be here tomorrow and hopefully we can put my noise to bed, one way or the other. First ACE sends me the tools for the Swingarm and also a Service Manual and Dduelin will be here tomorrow to help me diagnose my mystery sound. I think I will up my support to the site.
Re: Update U Joint
Thanks but site support is not necessary, it's just the friendly environment here. One thing you can do is.... pay it forward.. at some point someone will ask a question or like some help on something that you have experience with.. when that happens, just jump in..
I still think it's the u-joint myself, so I'm going with that bet. LOL
The 1st thing to do of course is remove the wheel and examine the bearings as well as the cush dampeners but while it's over, and the bike is in neutral, you should be able to turn the ring w/splines on the final drive by hand, there will be a lot of resistance but using a towel to get a better grip, you can turn it and it should be smooth with only constant and equal resistance... if not, then the wheel is probably ok and we're back the driveline.
Thanks but site support is not necessary, it's just the friendly environment here. One thing you can do is.... pay it forward.. at some point someone will ask a question or like some help on something that you have experience with.. when that happens, just jump in..
I still think it's the u-joint myself, so I'm going with that bet. LOL
The 1st thing to do of course is remove the wheel and examine the bearings as well as the cush dampeners but while it's over, and the bike is in neutral, you should be able to turn the ring w/splines on the final drive by hand, there will be a lot of resistance but using a towel to get a better grip, you can turn it and it should be smooth with only constant and equal resistance... if not, then the wheel is probably ok and we're back the driveline.
acedantinne
Site Supporter
Re: Update U Joint
Dave I tryed my bike on center stand. NO noise. NOTHING. at 75k replaced rubber bumbers. bike has 110k on it. if U place bike in first gear and rock rear tire back & forth still no noise. there is a engine/load comusator behind clutch. spring loaded.
when U check out drive line with rear tire removed. U must replace rear axle. just tighten nut a little to not draw swingarms in,. reason= there could be to much torque with drive line to handle with just 4 bolts.
BoB
Dave I tryed my bike on center stand. NO noise. NOTHING. at 75k replaced rubber bumbers. bike has 110k on it. if U place bike in first gear and rock rear tire back & forth still no noise. there is a engine/load comusator behind clutch. spring loaded.
when U check out drive line with rear tire removed. U must replace rear axle. just tighten nut a little to not draw swingarms in,. reason= there could be to much torque with drive line to handle with just 4 bolts.
BoB
troykahack
Re: Update U Joint
Ok, My new friend Dduelin drove almost 2.5 hours from Jacksonville FL to be here this morning at 9:00. Thank you ST Owners Group.
Diagnosis - Dduelin showed me that his nice ST1300 made the same noises as mine on the center stand. He took my bike for about a 12-15 miles check out. When he returned, there was no longer any clunking noise while driving, except when you got on the throttle hard and off, same as on his bike. We removed the rear wheel assy as per the service manual (he knew it by heart) and found the two "Final Driven Flange Bearings" were toast (actually one was destroyed and we tried to save the other one without success). Could only find one new bearing locally. I have two new bearings that will be here tomorrow. 91052-KZ4-J21 BEARING (6905RS) --- BEARING, RADIAL BALL (6905RS) (Honda Code 6267850)
As far as the U-Joint goes, we did the test as Mellow suggested, turning the ring w/splines on the final drive by hand, and it was smooth and equal resistance. At this point, I do not believe I have a defective U-Joint. Once I replace my two bearings, I will give you an update. I was surprised to say at the least regarding the noise the ST1300 makes on the center stand. I'll let someone more experienced discuss about the noise on the center stand. I was surprised myself.
I assume the U-Joint just needed a few miles on it since it had been sitting for so long, eliminating the noise while riding. The bearings were very bad, and I was destined for trouble shortly.
I want to again thank the group and all those that have helped me. ACE had the special tools to drive in and out the bearings and collar along with a Service Manual. We had 3 service manuals and kept ACE's clean from the grease, as this a differently get dirty job. LOL
I will update after my bearings come in tomorrow, they had one but no matter how hard we tried to save the bearing that seemed to be ok, when it was installed, it would bind and was not smooth. I will update after assy of the rear wheel assy.
Again, So much thanks to this group.
Ok, My new friend Dduelin drove almost 2.5 hours from Jacksonville FL to be here this morning at 9:00. Thank you ST Owners Group.
Diagnosis - Dduelin showed me that his nice ST1300 made the same noises as mine on the center stand. He took my bike for about a 12-15 miles check out. When he returned, there was no longer any clunking noise while driving, except when you got on the throttle hard and off, same as on his bike. We removed the rear wheel assy as per the service manual (he knew it by heart) and found the two "Final Driven Flange Bearings" were toast (actually one was destroyed and we tried to save the other one without success). Could only find one new bearing locally. I have two new bearings that will be here tomorrow. 91052-KZ4-J21 BEARING (6905RS) --- BEARING, RADIAL BALL (6905RS) (Honda Code 6267850)
As far as the U-Joint goes, we did the test as Mellow suggested, turning the ring w/splines on the final drive by hand, and it was smooth and equal resistance. At this point, I do not believe I have a defective U-Joint. Once I replace my two bearings, I will give you an update. I was surprised to say at the least regarding the noise the ST1300 makes on the center stand. I'll let someone more experienced discuss about the noise on the center stand. I was surprised myself.
I assume the U-Joint just needed a few miles on it since it had been sitting for so long, eliminating the noise while riding. The bearings were very bad, and I was destined for trouble shortly.
I want to again thank the group and all those that have helped me. ACE had the special tools to drive in and out the bearings and collar along with a Service Manual. We had 3 service manuals and kept ACE's clean from the grease, as this a differently get dirty job. LOL
I will update after my bearings come in tomorrow, they had one but no matter how hard we tried to save the bearing that seemed to be ok, when it was installed, it would bind and was not smooth. I will update after assy of the rear wheel assy.
Again, So much thanks to this group.
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2006
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- 8,067
- Location
- Jacksonville
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- GL1800 R1200RT NC700
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Re: Update U Joint
You have to provoke the noise on the centerstand by revving the bike up to 3000-3500 rpm then shut and open the throttle quickly back and forth. It won't do it at a steady rpm or if I was smooth on the throttle openings and closings - like we normally are.
When riding you also had to provoke it by closing and reopening the throttle in first or second gear in a way we never would normally ride the bike. There isn't anything wrong with the U joint on his bike or mine.
I still haven't had to replace a wheel or driven flange bearing on my '05 but I go to see how to do it. The tools you sent to Rory made the removal and replacement of these bearings easy. I just wish we had two good 6905RS bearings today and could have finished the job.
Had any boiled p-nuts lately?
You have to provoke the noise on the centerstand by revving the bike up to 3000-3500 rpm then shut and open the throttle quickly back and forth. It won't do it at a steady rpm or if I was smooth on the throttle openings and closings - like we normally are.
When riding you also had to provoke it by closing and reopening the throttle in first or second gear in a way we never would normally ride the bike. There isn't anything wrong with the U joint on his bike or mine.
I still haven't had to replace a wheel or driven flange bearing on my '05 but I go to see how to do it. The tools you sent to Rory made the removal and replacement of these bearings easy. I just wish we had two good 6905RS bearings today and could have finished the job.
Had any boiled p-nuts lately?
acedantinne
Site Supporter
Re: Update U Joint
I carry those 2 bearing in my tire/tool kit all the X. They are packed an ready too good. last replace them at 33k. been good since. I guess should have sent them along, I was thinking about it? sorry.
Glad to read, Dave U were there to help out.
I have not been in Florida since my youngest brother past away. Last Nov.
That will change this late fall Sue & I with vehicle/cage are heading down to visit her family.
No boiled Peanuts. Still makes me laugh. the look on your & stewys face.
BoBb
I carry those 2 bearing in my tire/tool kit all the X. They are packed an ready too good. last replace them at 33k. been good since. I guess should have sent them along, I was thinking about it? sorry.
Glad to read, Dave U were there to help out.
I have not been in Florida since my youngest brother past away. Last Nov.
That will change this late fall Sue & I with vehicle/cage are heading down to visit her family.
No boiled Peanuts. Still makes me laugh. the look on your & stewys face.
BoBb
troykahack
Re: Update U Joint
Yes Ace, I heard about your boiled P-Nuts... but is a story for only you and Dave to share. LOL
Dave didn't tell everyone. We had a plan that he would call me before X, so that i knew he got home safe, otherwise, his wife and i would go into action to insure he got home safe. Well, how can such a nice guy have a flat 10 miles from his house. I learned a long time ago, you don't plug tubeless Motorcycle tires.
Dave my offer still stands on replacing your tire or sharing the cost.
Yes ACE/Bob, that bearing tool is awesome. I just wish we could find another bearing. Hope to have it all back together by tomorrow night or the next day. I'm going to clean up you tool before sending back but I'm afraid your address label is not going to make it through the cleaning process. One sealed bearing (new one) and one open one. BTW, huge price difference on this bearing depending where you order from or who is the supplier. This might have something to do with Japans delay with the past problems of this year, but these bearings are very limited, in stock. Honda does have them in stock, but most of their distributors i tried and local dealers, did not have them.
Oh, meant to ask. How do I join the STOC?
Thanks again
Yes Ace, I heard about your boiled P-Nuts... but is a story for only you and Dave to share. LOL
Dave didn't tell everyone. We had a plan that he would call me before X, so that i knew he got home safe, otherwise, his wife and i would go into action to insure he got home safe. Well, how can such a nice guy have a flat 10 miles from his house. I learned a long time ago, you don't plug tubeless Motorcycle tires.
Dave my offer still stands on replacing your tire or sharing the cost.
Yes ACE/Bob, that bearing tool is awesome. I just wish we could find another bearing. Hope to have it all back together by tomorrow night or the next day. I'm going to clean up you tool before sending back but I'm afraid your address label is not going to make it through the cleaning process. One sealed bearing (new one) and one open one. BTW, huge price difference on this bearing depending where you order from or who is the supplier. This might have something to do with Japans delay with the past problems of this year, but these bearings are very limited, in stock. Honda does have them in stock, but most of their distributors i tried and local dealers, did not have them.
Oh, meant to ask. How do I join the STOC?
Thanks again
troykahack
Re: Update U Joint
Ok, i just saw note from ACE regarding installing the axle before checking the driveline. I will test today before assy to get accurate feel of driveline. Maybe I'm not yet done with U-Joint, but will see.
Good point ACE.
Again, thanks,
Ok, i just saw note from ACE regarding installing the axle before checking the driveline. I will test today before assy to get accurate feel of driveline. Maybe I'm not yet done with U-Joint, but will see.
Good point ACE.
Again, thanks,
troykahack
Re: Update U Joint
Ok, quick update while i have cleaned my hands.
Installed axle and snugged down as ACE indicated to do. Rear wheel spline is still very smooth with no play.
Installed new Driven Flange Bearings (6905) and Collar A, now bearings and collar are very smooth. Just like new. Will continue with replacing wheel and update when finished.
Ok, quick update while i have cleaned my hands.
Installed axle and snugged down as ACE indicated to do. Rear wheel spline is still very smooth with no play.
Installed new Driven Flange Bearings (6905) and Collar A, now bearings and collar are very smooth. Just like new. Will continue with replacing wheel and update when finished.
troykahack
Re: Update U Joint
Ok, I would have bet the farm that a U-Joint was defective on my ST1300.
Dave, after installing the second new bearing with the one I had from yesterday, after installing both the Driven Flange bearings and collar A, it was very smooth to turn, perfect set of bearings. After putting the bike back together, this was strange. I heard your noise on the Center Stand, it sounded nearly like my noise I had previous. But after installing the new bearings, I had very little noise on the center stand except when i would hit the throttle hard and back off right away, other than that, letting the bike run in gear on then center stand, no noise or clunking. I don't understand the mechanical engineering of the driven flange bearings and why it showed up with the noise I had? I don't know why the noise was almost non-existent after the bearing change, and yet i heard noise on Dave's bike.
I rode the bike for about 80 miles, what a sweet bike. No wonder this bike has a huge following. I got to watch it, i was doing 80 in a 35mph zone and didn't feel like I was going fast at all. One casualty out of this problem is I will be ordering a rear axle. The metric hex end of the axle is turning out while snugging down with the torque wrench, 80ft/lbs. So, I think the axle has limited further rear wheel removals. Where is the best place to order a axle?
Heck, where do I start, so many people to thank. You guys know who you are and what an awesome site. ACE, your tools will be cleaned up and shipped back to you shortly. I never pulled your Service Manual out of the box so it should not have any grease on it from me. I just don't understand the fix but I will take it.
Thanks, Rory
Ok, I would have bet the farm that a U-Joint was defective on my ST1300.
Dave, after installing the second new bearing with the one I had from yesterday, after installing both the Driven Flange bearings and collar A, it was very smooth to turn, perfect set of bearings. After putting the bike back together, this was strange. I heard your noise on the Center Stand, it sounded nearly like my noise I had previous. But after installing the new bearings, I had very little noise on the center stand except when i would hit the throttle hard and back off right away, other than that, letting the bike run in gear on then center stand, no noise or clunking. I don't understand the mechanical engineering of the driven flange bearings and why it showed up with the noise I had? I don't know why the noise was almost non-existent after the bearing change, and yet i heard noise on Dave's bike.
I rode the bike for about 80 miles, what a sweet bike. No wonder this bike has a huge following. I got to watch it, i was doing 80 in a 35mph zone and didn't feel like I was going fast at all. One casualty out of this problem is I will be ordering a rear axle. The metric hex end of the axle is turning out while snugging down with the torque wrench, 80ft/lbs. So, I think the axle has limited further rear wheel removals. Where is the best place to order a axle?
Heck, where do I start, so many people to thank. You guys know who you are and what an awesome site. ACE, your tools will be cleaned up and shipped back to you shortly. I never pulled your Service Manual out of the box so it should not have any grease on it from me. I just don't understand the fix but I will take it.
Thanks, Rory
Scooter
This space for rent...
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2006
- Messages
- 8,067
- Location
- Jacksonville
- Bike
- GL1800 R1200RT NC700
- 2025 Miles
- 008576
Re: Update U Joint
I am glad it all worked itself out. I pulled my rear wheel off tonight and checked my flange bearings. They turn slick as can be but since I have the two new ones from Miller Bearing I think I will replace them and see if it gets rid of the noise from on-off throttle on the center stand. I will PM Bob to see if you can hand off the bearing tool to me.
I am glad it all worked itself out. I pulled my rear wheel off tonight and checked my flange bearings. They turn slick as can be but since I have the two new ones from Miller Bearing I think I will replace them and see if it gets rid of the noise from on-off throttle on the center stand. I will PM Bob to see if you can hand off the bearing tool to me.
troykahack
Dave, if ACE approves, I will be more than happy to bring you the tools.
Also, it appears there is two types of axles depending on Frame s/n. Those on ebay don't indicate which frame they are for. I have a 2003, don't know when they made the axle change.
After further review, it appears there are only 5 frames with a different rear axle. I don't think it is likely i have one of the 5, if I do, I should play the lottery. But it doesn't hurt to know all your component S/N's.
Ok, checked my frame s/n, I have frame # 3M100170. :bow1: Wow, almost had to play the lottery. I have a pretty early version of the 03 ST1300 I would think.
I also wanted to comment on service manuals. I have a 2003 Service Manual and a 2003-2010 including Police A-Type Models 05-08. Dave and both noticed that the newer manual was much more helpful with tool types. In the later manual, each chapter has a drawing of the tools needed with part number and description in the front of each chapter while the 2003 Service Manual only lists the required tool part numbers. Having the tool drawings was helpful for ideas on other things that could be used for the tool and also showed the bearing driver in detail and gave a good understanding by visualizing the tool, instead of just a part number.
Rory
Also, it appears there is two types of axles depending on Frame s/n. Those on ebay don't indicate which frame they are for. I have a 2003, don't know when they made the axle change.
After further review, it appears there are only 5 frames with a different rear axle. I don't think it is likely i have one of the 5, if I do, I should play the lottery. But it doesn't hurt to know all your component S/N's.
Ok, checked my frame s/n, I have frame # 3M100170. :bow1: Wow, almost had to play the lottery. I have a pretty early version of the 03 ST1300 I would think.
I also wanted to comment on service manuals. I have a 2003 Service Manual and a 2003-2010 including Police A-Type Models 05-08. Dave and both noticed that the newer manual was much more helpful with tool types. In the later manual, each chapter has a drawing of the tools needed with part number and description in the front of each chapter while the 2003 Service Manual only lists the required tool part numbers. Having the tool drawings was helpful for ideas on other things that could be used for the tool and also showed the bearing driver in detail and gave a good understanding by visualizing the tool, instead of just a part number.
Rory
acedantinne
Site Supporter
Yes on 2 types of axles. Just a little on those early bikes, there is 2 types of front axles. 1 will fit flush the other will be out a 1/4 inche when proper torqued.
Rory, please pass tool to Dave, thanks.
Rory, clean battery terminals. remove neg first. clean use a little dieelectric grease,a little. replace wires in proper order on pos. terminal. torque terminal with inch pound to 108 inch pounds. must use inch pound wrench. U got to hold wires same X U torque battery bolts.
99 per cent of problems with any bike with all those electric is a poor battery connections/or dirty/how and what wires placed on battery first. heavy wire on battery first.
I,m better at showing then typing.
BoB
Rory, please pass tool to Dave, thanks.
Rory, clean battery terminals. remove neg first. clean use a little dieelectric grease,a little. replace wires in proper order on pos. terminal. torque terminal with inch pound to 108 inch pounds. must use inch pound wrench. U got to hold wires same X U torque battery bolts.
99 per cent of problems with any bike with all those electric is a poor battery connections/or dirty/how and what wires placed on battery first. heavy wire on battery first.
I,m better at showing then typing.
BoB
troykahack
Tool exchange took place Friday at dduelin's place of work. Sorry I missed you Dave but I had to go to the VA for an appointment Friday afternoon.
Please make sure ACE gets his tools and Service Manual when you are finished with them. I would also like to know if changing your driven flange bearings stop your noise on the center stand that were common to my bike before the bearing change.
Great Website.....
Please make sure ACE gets his tools and Service Manual when you are finished with them. I would also like to know if changing your driven flange bearings stop your noise on the center stand that were common to my bike before the bearing change.
Great Website.....