Warped Disc ?...why ?

Odie1

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Have what I think is an interesting question....

96 non-ABS. I am pretty sure I have a warped disc in the front. I get a nice pulsating feeling when braking with the front brakes.

Using a very "non-technical" method.. holding an object against the fork that will ALMOST contact the disc and spinning the front wheel, it seems only the one side is warped. I get an intermittent rub on one one side, nothing on the other.

Now - 5-6 years ago, I had the exact same thing, and found a used disc on flea-bay and installed it, along with new pads on both sides, and the issue seemed to go away... for awhile. Now, you would think I would remember which side I replaced, but of course I do not. There is a 50/50 chance it was the same side. :)

ASSUMING it was the same disc, what could be causing it to warp? I had no accidents or drops, and do not believe anything has "smacked" the disc during that time, and the pulsating has seemed to gradually increase over time.

Did I make a mistake only replacing one disc last time? Could something with the caliper be causing it? I have not checked to see if I have a frozen piston, but certainly will, but, would that cause a disc to warp ?

Also, looking at OEM disks, they are EXPENSIVE!! I have never understood why a 1 lbs motorcycle disc is $300+, while a 25 lbs compact car disc in $25 ??? Are there any alternatives in a more "economical" price range people have used? Would you be hesitant to purchased used ones?

Anyway - as always - your thoughts would be greatly appreciated before I start replacing everything at random....

Odie1
 
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they generally warp from overheating, which might be caused by getting too thin and not being able to dissipate enough heat. A thickness measurement would be interesting if you're able, and would also tell you if its worn beyond the nominal working spec of 4.00mm (they're 5.00mm to start)

going the used route is your best bet if you know you're not just buying another warped one. EBC and others make replacements, but they're fairly expensive as well, but much less than the Honda OEM part.
 
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Odie, I was once informed by someone much morer cleverer than I that warped discs can be caused by holding a vehicle stationary on the brakes after coming to rest. Such as stopping on a hill etc.
Is it possible that by applying light pressure whilst stopped would only operate one disc? I don't know the answer but it could be the answer. But then again so could witchcraft.
I think the general idea is that the heat could not dissipate evenly if the disc was clamped. Or witchcraft.
Upt'North.
 
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Modern motorcycle disc rotors do warp and do get thin, particularly bikes in the "jumbo class". However, in my opinion, the vast majority of pulsating rotors are not warped but have brake pad material build up bonded to the disc. It forms "waves" in the same way that washboard on dirt roads do.
The build up and bonding is in fact caused by heat. Heat that is well below the point of warping stainless steel. One way to mitigate this build up can happen at the end of a ride. If you conciously let your brakes cool off a bit during the last couple of miles before home where you will give that front brake one last clamp as you come to a stop.
It takes a lot of elbow grease to clean it off. Sometimes they need scraping.
 
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There is a difference between a warped disc that wobbles and one that varies in thickness.

The former shouldn't cause much feedback if the caliper moves freely, but the latter will.

My Honda Accord does it a little. If I carefully hold the pedal pressure, I can feel the slowing pulsate.
 
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drrod

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Interesting article on "warped" discs.

  • Articles
  • The "Warped" Brake Disc and Other Myths of the Braking System
The "Warped" Brake Disc and Other Myths of the Braking System
2011-02-21 - Carroll Smith (from StopTech)
Myth # 1 – BRAKE JUDDER AND VIBRATION IS CAUSED BY DISCS THAT HAVE BEEN WARPED FROM EXCESSIVE HEAT.
The term "warped brake disc" has been in common use in motor racing for decades. When a driver reports a vibration under hard braking, inexperienced crews, after checking for (and not finding) cracks often attribute the vibration to "warped discs". They then measure the disc thickness in various places, find significant variation and the diagnosis is cast in stone.
When disc brakes for high performance cars arrived on the scene we began to hear of "warped brake discs" on road going cars, with the same analyses and diagnoses. Typically, the discs are resurfaced to cure the problem and, equally typically, after a relatively short time the roughness or vibration comes back. Brake roughness has caused a significant number of cars to be bought back by their manufacturers under the "lemon laws". This has been going on for decades now - and, like most things that we have cast in stone, the diagnoses are wrong.
With one qualifier, presuming that the hub and wheel flange are flat and in good condition and that the wheel bolts or hat mounting hardware is in good condition, installed correctly and tightened uniformly and in the correct order to the recommended torque specification, in more than 40 years of professional racing, including the Shelby/Ford GT 40s – one of the most intense brake development program in history - I have never seen a warped brake disc. I have seen lots of cracked discs, (FIGURE 1) discs that had turned into shallow cones at operating temperature because they were mounted rigidly to their attachment bells or top hats, (FIGURE 2) a few where the friction surface had collapsed in the area between straight radial interior vanes, (FIGURE 3) and an untold number of discs with pad material unevenly deposited on the friction surfaces - sometimes visible and more often not. (FIGURE 4)
In fact every case of "warped brake disc" that I have investigated, whether on a racing car or a street car, has turned out to be friction pad material transferred unevenly to the surface of the disc. This uneven deposition results in thickness variation (TV) or run-out due to hot spotting that occurred at elevated temperatures.
In order to understand what is happening here, we will briefly investigate the nature of the stopping power of the disc brake system.

THE NATURE OF BRAKING FRICTION
Friction is the mechanism that converts dynamic energy into heat. Just as there are two sorts of friction between the tire and the road surface (mechanical gripping of road surface irregularities by the elastic tire compound and transient molecular adhesion between the rubber and the road in which rubber is transferred to the road surface), so there are two very different sorts of braking friction - abrasive friction and adherent friction. Abrasive friction involves the breaking of the crystalline bonds of both the pad material and the cast iron of the disc. The breaking of these bonds generates the heat of friction. In abrasive friction, the bonds between crystals of the pad material (and, to a lesser extent, the disc material) are permanently broken. The harder material wears the softer away (hopefully the disc wears the pad). Pads that function primarily by abrasion have a high wear rate and tend to fade at high temperatures. When these pads reach their effective temperature limit, they will transfer pad material onto the disc face in a random and uneven pattern. It is this "pick up" on the disc face that both causes the thickness variation measured by the technicians and the roughness or vibration under the brakes reported by the drivers.
With adherent friction, some of the pad material diffuses across the interface between the pad and the disc and forms a very thin, uniform layer of pad material on the surface of the disc. As the friction surfaces of both disc and pad then comprise basically the same material, material can now cross the interface in both directions and the bonds break and reform. In fact, with adherent friction between pad and disc, the bonds between pad material and the deposits on the disc are transient in nature - they are continually being broken and some of them are continually reforming.
There is no such thing as pure abrasive or pure adherent friction in braking. With many contemporary pad formulas, the pad material must be abrasive enough to keep the disc surface smooth and clean. As the material can cross the interface, the layer on the disc is constantly renewed and kept uniform - again until the temperature limit of the pad has been exceeded or if the pad and the disc have not been bedded-in completely or properly. In the latter case, if a uniform layer of pad material transferred onto the disc face has not been established during bedding or break-in, spot or uncontrolled transfer of the material can occur when operating at high temperatures. The organic and semi-metallic pads of the past were more abrasive than adherent and were severely temperature limited. All of the current generation of "metallic carbon", racing pads utilize mainly adherent technology as do many of the high end street car pads and they are temperature stable over a much higher range. Unfortunately, there is no free lunch and the ultra high temperature racing pads are ineffective at the low temperatures typically experienced in street use.
Therefore - there is no such thing as an ideal "all around" brake pad. The friction material that is quiet and functions well at relatively low temperatures around town will not stop the car that is driven hard. If you attempt to drive many cars hard with the OEM pads, you will experience pad fade, friction material transfer and fluid boiling - end of discussion. The true racing pad, used under normal conditions will be noisy and will not work well at low temperatures around town.
Ideally, in order to avoid either putting up with squealing brakes that will not stop the car well around town or with pad fade on the track or coming down the mountain at speed, we should change pads before indulging in vigorous automotive exercise. No one does. The question remains, what pads should be used in high performance street cars - relatively low temperature street pads or high temperature race pads? Strangely enough, in my opinion, the answer is a high performance street pad with good low temperature characteristics. The reason is simple: If we are driving really hard and begin to run into trouble, either with pad fade or boiling fluid (or both), the condition(s) comes on gradually enough to allow us to simply modify our driving style to compensate. On the other hand, should an emergency occur when the brakes are cold, the high temperature pad is simply not going to stop the car. As an example, during the mid 1960s, those of us at Shelby American did not drive GT 350 or GT 500 Mustangs as company cars simply because they were equipped with Raybestos M-19 racing pads and none of our wives could push on the brake pedal hard enough to stop the car in normal driving.
Regardless of pad composition, if both disc and pad are not properly broken in, material transfer between the two materials can take place in a random fashion - resulting is uneven deposits and vibration under braking. Similarly, even if the brakes are properly broken, if, when they are very hot or following a single long stop from high speed, the brakes are kept applied after the vehicle comes to a complete stop it is possible to leave a telltale deposit behind that looks like the outline of a pad. This kind of deposit is called pad imprinting and looks like the pad was inked for printing like a stamp and then set on the disc face. It is possible to see the perfect outline of the pad on the disc. (FIGURE 5)
It gets worse. Cast iron is an alloy of iron and silicon in solution interspersed with particles of carbon. At elevated temperatures, inclusions of carbides begin to form in the matrix. In the case of the brake disk, any uneven deposits - standing proud of the disc surface - become hotter than the surrounding metal. Every time that the leading edge of one of the deposits rotates into contact with the pad, the local temperature increases. When this local temperature reaches around 1200 or 1300 degrees F. the cast iron under the deposit begins to transform into cementite (an iron carbide in which three atoms of iron combine with one atom of carbon). Cementite is very hard, very abrasive and is a poor heat sink. If severe use continues the system will enter a self-defeating spiral - the amount and depth of the cementite increases with increasing temperature and so does the brake roughness. Drat!
MYTH # 2 - RACING BRAKE DISCS ARE MADE FROM STEEL
MYTH # 3 - A SOFT BRAKE PEDAL IS THE RESULT OF PAD FADE
MYTH # 4 - BOILED BRAKE FLUID WILL BE SERVICABLE AFTER IT COOLS.
MYTH # 5 - NON-HYGROSCOPIC SILICON BASED BRAKE FLUIDS ARE SUITABLE FOR USE IN HIGH PERFORMANCE CARS
MYTH # 6 - THE BRAKE FLUID RESERVOIR SHOULD BE TOPPED UP DURING ROUTINE SERVICE

Please visit the StopTech website for the remainder of this detailed article:
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml
 

wjbertrand

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One thing not mentioned is the possibility of bending the disk such as when the wheel is off for a tire change. It’s surprisingly easy to do.
 

Bee

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It’s sort of relevant to the OP so I’ll just ask if no one minds. My bike is a non ABS plain model too. on the LHS lower fork leg where the caliper bolts onto the leg it’s on a sort of carrier which ‘moves’ when you grab and wiggle it. Like a rubber mounted damper thing. ( The RHS is different without the carrier or damper ).

Whats the reason for it? When I apply the brakes (while riding) that LHS caliper must move a bit as it bites on the disc. Could this somehow be related to the OP’s pulsing sensation? BTW I have nothing untoward with mine, brakes are fine no problems.
 
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It’s sort of relevant to the OP so I’ll just ask if no one minds. My bike is a non ABS plain model too. on the LHS lower fork leg where the caliper bolts onto the leg it’s on a sort of carrier which ‘moves’ when you grab and wiggle it. Like a rubber mounted damper thing. ( The RHS is different without the carrier or damper ).

Whats the reason for it? When I apply the brakes (while riding) that LHS caliper must move a bit as it bites on the disc. Could this somehow be related to the OP’s pulsing sensation? BTW I have nothing untoward with mine, brakes are fine no problems.
It's the Anti-Dive Bee.
Upt'North.
honda-st1100-paneuropean-2000-y-england-front-fork-st1100_bigecajx41f__1000_1028.gif
 
OP
OP

Odie1

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Everyone,

Thanks for all the replies. Let me try and respond - and ask another question or two....

Overheating.... certainly a possibility - although I would not consider myself an aggressive rider - hard on the gas, hard on the brakes type. But I realize that is all perspective and maybe the habit of primarily using the front brake could be an issue - especially in traffic situations in towns - stop and go, ect . And never even considered the effect of holding the brakes once stopped.

Disc thickness - I have a set of measuring calipers that I may go play with to check it, although they are a "flat blade" type instrument and may not be able to detect changes unless the thickness varies all the way from the center of the disc to the outside edge.

Drrod - thanks for that... I have read through it, and will be reading through it again... a lot to digest there...

Bent during a tire change.... could be, although I don't REMEMBER it just starting after the last time I installed a new tire.... but again - I can't remember which disc I replaced, so there! :p.

Disc lock - never used one - JUST FOR THAT REASON!!! see above re memory....

So - where do I go from here - fix action wise? I take it there is no easy way to remove "pad material" buildup on the disc, if that's the case, so in any event - am I looking at replacing the disc...or discs... or is there possibly some other remedy?

Thanks again

Odie1
 
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So - where do I go from here - fix action wise? I take it there is no easy way to remove "pad material" buildup on the disc, if that's the case, so in any event - am I looking at replacing the disc...or discs... or is there possibly some other remedy?
It isn't really so, so hard to clean it off. I use replacement blades for floor scrapers. Hand held (just the blade) and spin the wheel (raised off the floor). If you rotate the wheel backwards, you can rest it against the front of the caliper.
Do a search for "Floor scrapers Hand Floor Scraper Replacement Blades 8 Inch" They are super flat, sharp and last a long time. They come in packs of 10 so you can pass some out to your friends.
 

ReSTored

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Before concluding you have a warped disk I'd pull the wheel, clean the disks, and the calipers, including the grooves under the seals and also the caliper pins (clean and lube) to ensure the calipers are floating as intended when applied. Check and clean the pads as well. Are the pads evenly worn or is one pads thinner that the other in the set? Are both sets of pads wearing the same?
 
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Never had one on a motorcycle that warped but I have plenty of experience on cars. Heat from sticking brake calipers caused my problems and warped my rotors. Which was caused by old sticky brake fluid and old brake hoses. When I bought the cheap china replacements they usually last about a year before they too warped.
 
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It’s sort of relevant to the OP so I’ll just ask if no one minds. My bike is a non ABS plain model too. on the LHS lower fork leg where the caliper bolts onto the leg it’s on a sort of carrier which ‘moves’ when you grab and wiggle it. Like a rubber mounted damper thing. ( The RHS is different without the carrier or damper ).

Whats the reason for it? When I apply the brakes (while riding) that LHS caliper must move a bit as it bites on the disc. Could this somehow be related to the OP’s pulsing sensation? BTW I have nothing untoward with mine, brakes are fine no problems.
caliper moves an anti dive piston or a valve in the front fork, not a damper
 
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Interesting article on "warped" discs.

  • Articles
  • The "Warped" Brake Disc and Other Myths of the Braking System
One thing that is not mentioned is lateral run out. the spec for run out on most cars is about .004, I believe the honda mc rotor is even more. Allegedly a floating caliper compensates for that. but with that rotor hitting the pad in spot on the inside then an opposite spot on the outside can cause uneven wear on the rotor, thickness variation which can cause a pulsation. 8-900 revolutions per mile times 20,000 miles turns into millions of times the rotor pushes ever so slightly on the pads. It all adds up
 
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Modern motorcycle disc rotors do warp and do get thin, particularly bikes in the "jumbo class". However, in my opinion, the vast majority of pulsating rotors are not warped but have brake pad material build up bonded to the disc. It forms "waves" in the same way that washboard on dirt roads do.
The build up and bonding is in fact caused by heat. Heat that is well below the point of warping stainless steel. One way to mitigate this build up can happen at the end of a ride. If you conciously let your brakes cool off a bit during the last couple of miles before home where you will give that front brake one last clamp as you come to a stop.
It takes a lot of elbow grease to clean it off. Sometimes they need scraping.
My Accord had a brake front rotor pulsation. Very busy, never got around to it when I had to drive My daughter to school in Pittsburgh, 500 miles away. Loaded up a trailer easily over 1000 lbs. lots of stop and go. Lots of hills in Pittsburgh. When I returned home I noticed the brake pulsation was gone. About a month later I could feel the pulsation coming back. I have never had any of my motorcycle brake rotors warp. But car rotors no matter what you do will warp eventually.
 

ST1100Y

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... car rotors no matter what you do will warp eventually...
Had such after ham-fisted monkeys at a tire store slammed the car's wheel-bolts on with the air-powered impact wrench... :rolleyes:


Which brings me back to the OP:
Possible that the bolts fixing the rotors on the wheel are unevenly torqued, or that some of the paper-shims are missing??
The latter are essential for clearance to keep up with the expansion<>contraction of the steel rotors on the aluminum wheel...

I'd do the following:
- push pistons of both front rotors in so the wheel can rotate freely
- place bike on main-stand and jack up the front
- kneel in front of the bike, facing front wheel and rotate it while observing the edge of the rotor; alternative and more precise: place an "instrument" like a pop-sickle stick on the fork bottom, facing the rotor at 90°, tip nearly touching the surface, should give a clear indication if they're true or not while rotating the wheel
- while at it: check front wheel bearings as well as tire for cupping... (you never know... ;))
- last but not least: remove wheel from bike, remove each rotor c.a.r.e.f.u.l.l.y. (do not break those paper shims!) to see if i) all shims are present ii) even torque on all bolts (once had a case with a stripped thread, bolt held on only due corrosion...)
- place rotors flat on a plane surface, like a glass table...
when installing again:
- clean all contact surfaces thoroughly before installation, might require some scotchbrite scrubbing to get the corrosion off, but all contact surfaces must be fully even...
- clean out all blind-holes on the wheel with compressed air, see that there is no old thread-lock inside...
- observe the [L] and [R] markings on the rotor (FYI: where the speedo gear goes on is the LEFT side of the wheel ;) )
(- I fix the paper shims into their positions with a slight smear of marine lube, but that's me... )
- one drop of Loctite on each bolt, manual says 43Nm on each (I'd go ~38Nm due "lubrication" by the liquid thread-lock... but again, that's me... the usual disclaimers apply...)
- more marine grease on wheel bearing seals and axle shaft
- install wheel
- pump brakes back up before take-off !!!
 
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