well rear brake locked up

[dduelin]

Thanks for that Dave. Can the pedal drop test be done on the centerstand or does the bike need to be rolling such that the SMC is activated?

I only felt it while riding. You brake using both pedal and lever but as the lever is bled off to nothing while pedal pressure is held steady the pedal drops enough to press the pads against the disk with the same pressure as the front brake pistons applied before they were released.

 

[paulcb]

Thanks Dave.

 

[the Ferret]

Thanks, we do that on his, but not before every ride. From what I've read in this thread and in some others is that it can happen suddenly, i.e. both wheels could spin easily in the morning and then rear wheel lock in the afternoon. Is that too exaggerated, or is the consensus that there is a gradual drag (front and/or rear) and then final lock?

I have to hand roll my bike out of the garage backwards with 1 hand on the bars and one hand on the seat into a giant half circle while standing to the side. It's easy to tell if the bike wheels are rolling freely, as it rolls very easily, and takes some effort to stop the rearward momentum to set it on the side stand. I had rolled my bike out easily with no drag, 40 minutes before the lock up. Just my opinion but that is no harbinger of whether a lockup is pending.

 

[ST Gui]

A unscrupulous tech could just top off the reservoirs and pocket quite bit of flat rate money. The next owner thinks the brakes were done according to the receipts the seller had.

There are no doubt good shops around who'd never do this. But I suspect this happens more than some of us realize. Others get familiar with the bike and do their own wrenching if possible.

Or find a great independent wrench who let's them watch while providing teaching moments. And there's this forum and the White Courtesy Phone.

IIRC somebody mentioned an electronic SMC design patented by Honda. If this comes to pass (if it isn't already on the 2018 'Wing?) corrosion won't be the problem it is now. Until then there's regular inspection and preventative maintenance.

My ST buddy maintains his bike very well but neither of us were/are really familiar with the SMC. When he visited Igofar's OCD garage for work on his cooling system Larry tapped the SMC with his foot. It sounded like a door knocker. He pulled a new SMC off the shelf and immediately fixed it. Apparently the piston was seized solidly in place.

My buddy rides all year round and in the wet just not in the rain if at all possible. Now routine SMC inspection is part of his maintenance drill.

Some will rebuild the SMC but I'm for just replacing it with a new one. The question is at what point should R&R take place before catastrophic failure? I can't be the only one who wouldn't disassemble an SMC and mic all the components and put it back together if they're not really worn.

 

[the Ferret]

Following up on Cat's suggestion a few pages earlier.... Knowing what I know now, if one only rode in good weather, I'd say an SMC would be good for a long time. Maybe 10 years with a little preventive maintenance. However if you are a year round rider, out in rain, snow, whatever nature throws your way, over lots of miles, I don't think it would be unreasonable diligence just to replace the SMC with a new one every 5 years, or every second or third brake flush. I wish I had. Maybe IGOFAR could give his theory on that. he's certainly dealt with a lot more of them than any of the rest of us have.

Then again, I would think most of the one's Larry's had to deal with have been in the land of sunshine, and not in the snow belt.

 

[Catmandu2]

Similar thoughts here,, Ferret. My guess-timate would have been a 4 year rebuild or replace period for braking systems that have a hard life of constant exposure to all conditions. Especially when it comes to older units. I want to defer to our member experts,,, and throw out some relevant history for consideration. btw,, I stand by to be corrected if anything I state is not accurate. When I replaced my SMC,, I believe I got the newer version,,, which had some variation on piston design and spring size. I am not sure when this version became available,, and if some model years had it,, and others do not. I would recommend that anyone who has an older version,, would want to replace it with the latest. Although a rebuild kit is available,,, I don't think this is the safest way to go for everyone.

Also,,, once a SMC has been replaced,, so that the new version is in place, I suggest that the life span could be extended to 6 years,,, providing a full brake maintenance program is followed annually. Tear-downs,, inspections, cleanings and lubrication at least every 2 years for bikes that have a hard life and constant use. I don't winter ride,,, but am taking this approach,, now that I have a new SMC and all the flushing gear needed. Actually,,, my brakes have never worked better,, since I have owned my ST13.

Finally,,, food for thought is the comparison to the GL1800 system and safety recall. It is obvious to me that we are being ignored, because we do not ride an active production model. But this is the type of response that Honda made for the Goldwing. And we should try to learn what we can from it. Cheers,, Cat'

http://www.justwings.com/uploads/SB-23_Secondary_Master_Cylinder_Replacement.pdf

 

[jfheath]

http://www.justwings.com/uploads/SB-23_Secondary_Master_Cylinder_Replacement.pdf

I wonder how many ST1300 owners take their bikes to Honda Dealers to have them maintained ? Perhaps that is the reason that Honda haven't done a recall - although they have made a number of modifications over the years.

They identify the real issue (as far as I am concerned) in the recall notice. Inadequate maintenance. In the case of the ST1300, not only does the fluid need to be changed (max between changes - 2 years I believe but I don't take much notice of that, I do mine every year). The reason for this is that the fluid absorbs moisture, and moisture causes corrosion. The ST1300 has its open end facing uphill. There is only a rubber boot to prevent water getting to the outside of the secondary seal. That seal needs to be water tight, and the drainage channel must be kept clear. The bleeding / flushing sequence doesn't describe the steps needed to ensure that all of the old fluid is replaced - in my opinion. There are few places of 'slack fluid' where no amount of bleeding will shift the old, contaminated fluid. I reckon that there is one in the forward piston in the rear caliper, possibly another two behind the lower piston of the front calipers. For both of these, the old fluid needs to be expelled, and flushed with fresh fluid - simply by exercising the pistons when flushing.
But there is also a bit of slack fluid in the uphill part of the SMC. The SMC needs to be exercised to get rid of the contaminated fluid.

I have a 2009 model ST1300 but I don't know how much of it was assembled before it actually came off the production line in September 2013. In January 2018, I was getting a few niggles about the brakes. A few little symptoms which could have been air, it could have been sticking pistons or it could have been the SMC. But once you have a niggle, there's not much can shift it. I ordered a new SMC and a new piston seal set, and took it all apart. It turned out that one piston had become corroded under the shiny surface - so that was replaced. I was surprised because I clean and re-grease the pistons every tyre change - which for me is 5000 miles. I fitted the new SMC and refilled it all. Perfect. Better than new.

I took the old SMC apart, and there was nothing wrong with it. The piston moved well, there wasn't a hint of corrosion inside or outside the bore. I cleaned it up, washed it, thoroughly dried it, and its still sitting on my desk dis-assembled in thick, clear, poly bags. I will re-use it at some point. This SMC has the later style of piston where the primary seal is not attached to the piston itself, but to the end of the return spring. It also has the long external channel to drain the water away. I had lifted the rubber boot and put silicon grease around the entry point where the plunger passes through the washer - the one that is held in place by the circlip. This bike had done 38,000 miles over 4 years and we live in Yorkshire. It rains a lot and I ride in winter as well as summer and we are often caught out in heavy rain.

My previous ST1300 had done 70,000 miles when I sold it, and I had no issues with the SMC that couldn't be answered by bleeding properly (not that I knew then how to get all of the air out of the air traps on the 1300).

Be aware that I do not know whether the service kit of a Post 2007 model will fit a pre-2008 model SMC. They are different - mainly because the brake calipers are different. Its possible that the piston is the same bore and length, but I have no way of knowing. I think Larry or Joe posted some pics ages ago of the different styles of piston - but I don't think the question of whether the new pistons will fit the old bores was answered. If I can find it, I'll post the link here - unless someone else beats me to it.

 

[Soontobeone]

Be aware that I do not know whether the service kit of a Post 2007 model will fit a pre-2008 model SMC. They are different - mainly because the brake calipers are different. Its possible that the piston is the same bore and length, but I have no way of knowing. I think Larry or Joe posted some pics ages ago of the different styles of piston - but I don't think the question of whether the new pistons will fit the old bores was answered. If I can find it, I'll post the link here - unless someone else beats me to it.

At one point I was going to replace my '07 SMC with the later '08 version. Then I discovered that the later version SMC would not fit into my '07 caliper. The newer SMC is longer, due to the difference in calipers (older vs newer).

 

[dduelin]

Following up on Cat's suggestion a few pages earlier.... Knowing what I know now, if one only rode in good weather, I'd say an SMC would be good for a long time. Maybe 10 years with a little preventive maintenance. However if you are a year round rider, out in rain, snow, whatever nature throws your way, over lots of miles, I don't think it would be unreasonable diligence just to replace the SMC with a new one every 5 years, or every second or third brake flush. I wish I had. Maybe IGOFAR could give his theory on that. he's certainly dealt with a lot more of them than any of the rest of us have.

Then again, I would think most of the one's Larry's had to deal with have been in the land of sunshine, and not in the snow belt.

Just to be clear I'm a year round all weather rider who rides when it rains and it rains alot here in Florida, plus the high humidity has it's share of corrosive salt in the air itself ( I live in a coastal community ). I also wash my bike a lot. I don't think my bike has led a pampered life over it's 179,000 mile life. It looks like it has but it's been ridden on sunny and rainy days alike.

 

[vinny]

It's not that bad of a job. about $200 bucks for SMC, Pads, Seals, boots and hanger pins. If a rear rotor is needed... OEM is $230. Can find cheaper if your not hung up on OEM parts.
If you need pistons, their about $18 apiece... Looking at about $430 in parts at the worse, if you take it to a shop, I'm guessing they will charge you about $2,000 to do the work... and then you may not get a good job.
It may be better to find someone that could help you through it and save some serious cash.

 

[the Ferret]

Just to be clear I'm a year round all weather rider who rides when it rains and it rains alot here in Florida, plus the high humidity has it's share of corrosive salt in the air itself ( I live in a coastal community ). I also wash my bike a lot. I don't think my bike has led a pampered life over it's 179,000 mile life. It looks like it has but it's been ridden on sunny and rainy days alike.

It's obvious by the mileage you roll up every year that you are also a rider. Do you have a recommendation for time/ miles replacement of the SMC as a preventative measure?

 

[dduelin]

It's obvious by the mileage you roll up every year that you are also a rider. Do you have a recommendation for time/ miles replacement of the SMC as a preventative measure?

I've long had the parts on hand to rebuild it when it fails frequent inspection.

I don't plan to replace it until that time.

 

[MattInDenver]

Service emailed me the parts will be covered under warranty mind you I am the original owner and bought it two years with 2 miles on the odometer. It is the front left piston that is tied to the linked braking. The piston was corroded and stuck in place causing the rear to lock. Labor I do not think is covered. AGATT

 

[Catmandu2]

Service emailed me the parts will be covered under warranty mind you I am the original owner and bought it two years with 2 miles on the odometer. It is the front left piston that is tied to the linked braking. The piston was corroded and stuck in place causing the rear to lock. Labor I do not think is covered. AGATT

Hi Matt,, I would suggest that the piston they are referring to, is not a piston in the left caliper,,, but the piston inside the SMC,,, which is attached to the left caliper. This is the typical smc failure mode,, but it is both disturbing and telling that it can happen on such a low mileage bike. This is the time of year that bikes come out of storage,,, and we may see a rise in the number of failures due to corrosion over the winter ?? Cat'

 

[the Ferret]

I’ve long had the parts on hand to rebuild it when it fails frequent inspection.

I don’t plan to replace it until that time.

I'm talking about generally for members that are not mechanics at heart.

Say someone has, or just bought a used 2009 ST 1300 with 24,,000 miles on it. Now, considering the owner/purchaser is not a mechanic and is relying on a factory trained service rep to do the work at a dealership. At this point, is a brake flush and bleed "good enough" or at 9 years old and 24,000 miles would he be better off opting for the dealership to do a brake bleed /flush AND install a new SMC in your opinion? See where I am going with this?

 

[MattInDenver]

Hi Matt,, I would suggest that the piston they are referring to, is not a piston in the left caliper,,, but the piston inside the SMC,,, which is attached to the left caliper. This is the typical smc failure mode,, but it is both disturbing and telling that it can happen on such a low mileage bike. This is the time of year that bikes come out of storage,,, and we may see a rise in the number of failures due to corrosion over the winter ?? Cat'

Indeed considering that my garage is an underground concrete structure that is dry. As soon as I get the RO I will post the part number. Thanks

 

[Trapperdog]

I purchased my ‘06 1300 last Oct with 12,xxx miles, six hundred miles away, and trailered it Home (a first). Having had a few previous owners and not knowing the service records I planed on a full maintenance workup and pre ordered parts including a new SMC. Trailered it directly to Larry’s and we found the SMC locked up, luckily in the open position though so nothing else was affected. Peace of mind is often worth a few extra $$. Over 19K miles now and all is well.

 

[MattInDenver]

Agreed I am more than happy to pay for the piece of mind.

 

[dduelin]

I'm talking about generally for members that are not mechanics at heart.

Say someone has, or just bought a used 2009 ST 1300 with 24,,000 miles on it. Now, considering the owner/purchaser is not a mechanic and is relying on a factory trained service rep to do the work at a dealership. At this point, is a brake flush and bleed "good enough" or at 9 years old and 24,000 miles would he be better off opting for the dealership to do a brake bleed /flush AND install a new SMC in your opinion? See where I am going with this?

Brakes are a critical system and I'm not certified, trained, or qualified to offer an opinion. My personal thought is that I'd ask to speak to the factory trained technician and ask him/her your specific question and let them incur the liability.

 

[technotony007]

My suggestion as below , I would pay the dealership to renew the SMC and a system flush of new oil... then its piece of mind …. and if goes wrong you may have some cause of recompense.

just my thoughts ,

tony

QUOTE=the Ferret;2081868]I'm talking about generally for members that are not mechanics at heart.

Say someone has, or just bought a used 2009 ST 1300 with 24,,000 miles on it. Now, considering the owner/purchaser is not a mechanic and is relying on a factory trained service rep to do the work at a dealership. At this point, is a brake flush and bleed "good enough" or at 9 years old and 24,000 miles would he be better off opting for the dealership to do a brake bleed /flush AND install a new SMC in your opinion? See where I am going with this?[/QUOTE]