What is wrong with Honda?

MinnFallST

Joined
Oct 1, 2013
Messages
69
Location
Minnesota
Bike
2008 Honda ST13
It seems to me that there is something wrong at Honda. They are not designing very good bikes lately. Here we have the ST1300 which hasn't been changed much in over 10 years, and not even in
in production. While BMW and Yamaha continually update their sport tourers, the K1600 and the FJR. Other manufacturers are updating theirs too. Then Honda comes out with the CTX1300 and the F6B, neither of which are very popular. Nor can these new bikes really be called sport tourers. Have they decided they can't compete with BMW and Yamaha and have thrown in the towel?

The other bikes they have come out with in the last few years have not faired any better. The VFR1200 was widely panned. They stopped at the 2013 model and I think you can pick one up cheaply these days. What was it supposed to be anyway? I don't see any NC700's, CTX's being very popular either. What was the reaction to the new Interceptor/VFR800?

the largest growing motorcycle segment the past few years has been the adventure touring market. What is Honda's offering there. Um, nothing.

I bought my ST1300 because I wanted a Honda for its reliability, the V4, and because of the reviews I read. If I were to buy today, I would probably go a different direction. I would want the features that the other bikes have so I wouldn't have to jury rig a new bike by spending a ton of time and money on farkles.

i think they have either given up, or their design team should be fired. They need to start making motorcycles that people want rather than motorcycles they THINK people want.

its been a long day. Tirade over.
 
You won't get much disagreement... your points have been stated similarly in a number of threads. But the one thing that's hard for us North Americans to accept is that Honda can sell more small cc bikes in India in a day than they do a whole year in the US. We're not the market of opportunity... India and other emerging economies are the opportunity. Honda is focusing resources where there is most revenue...which results in them not delivering what we want, here.
 
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BakerBoy said:
You won't get much disagreement... your points have been stated similarly in a number of threads. But the one thing that's hard for us North Americans to accept is that Honda can sell more small cc bikes in India in a day than they do a whole year in the US. We're not the market of opportunity... India and other emerging economies are the opportunity. Honda is focusing resources where there is most revenue...which results in them not delivering what we want, here.
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So the CTX and f6B were designed for India? I would think if they had resources for those designs, they could design better bikes for our market. My theory is that there marketing or design vision went awry and they need to right the ship. It would tell a lot though to see real numbers on what the market in the U.S. is compared to other places. Why isn't Harley chasing the money in emerging markets?
 
BakerBoy said:
...Honda can sell more small cc bikes in India in a day than they do a whole year in the US. ... Honda is focusing resources where there is most revenue...
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Hi John:

You make a good point - the volume is in India, for sure, but I'm not sure if volume necessarily correlates with revenue, or (more important) gross margin. I spent the last 6 months in India, and all the Honda products being sold there are little things between 50 and 250 cc. I believe that Honda is involved in some form of joint venture with an Indian manufacturer (this because of protectionism in India), and that combination of a JV together with low-cost products in a very competitive and price-conscious market is not exactly a formula for a healthy bottom line.

North America (Canada and USA) offer 350 million customers, and Europe, a somewhat similar market, offers another 350 million. Big bikes such as the ST series sell for 10 times what the average Honda India product sells for. And, as the original poster pointed out, BMW and Yamaha are competing very aggressively in segments that Honda seems to have just abandoned.

I've bought 5 different Honda bikes over the past 45 years, but, I doubt that I will ever buy another one. Not because I'm unhappy with Honda (quite the contrary, I have been very happy with all the Hondas I have bought), but simply because they don't offer anything I might be interested in.

Michael
 
Seems like I rewrite this post at least twice a year...

CYYJ said:
You make a good point - the volume is in India, for sure, but I'm not sure if volume necessarily correlates with revenue, or (more important) gross margin. ... that combination of a JV together with low-cost products in a very competitive and price-conscious market is not exactly a formula for a healthy bottom line.
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Honda's annual reports for the last several years have been crystal clear about their strategy, which is going after sales of small-displacement bikes in Asian markets. So far it seems to have been a success.

North America (Canada and USA) offer 350 million customers, and Europe, a somewhat similar market, offers another 350 million. Big bikes such as the ST series sell for 10 times what the average Honda India product sells for.
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North America doesn't have 350,000,000 customers to offer, it has that many people. Once you weed out the too-young, too-old, uninterested and those without the discretionary cash to buy, the number of customers is a lot smaller. U.S. sales last year would put that number a shade over 500,000, 20-25% of which is off-road bikes and scooters.

This continent was buying less than 6,000 ST13s annually when it was brand new and people were lining up to put a deposit down on one. That number dwindled to a few hundred, and the U.S. market now gets zero that aren't police models. I have no idea how many they sell in Canada these days, but based on the size of the population, I'd be very surprised if it's more than 100.

Honda's 2016 plans include plant expansions that will bring its motorcycle capacity in India alone to 6,200,000. That's one manufacturer in one country with demand for twelve times the entire U.S. market for all manufacturers combined. I'll let you do the math on whether or not that's going to be more profitable than trying to sell a few hundred expensive STs into a market where the demographic who'd buy them has become very tight with discretionary spending.

And, as the original poster pointed out, BMW and Yamaha are competing very aggressively in segments that Honda seems to have just abandoned.
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"Competing aggressively" in the North American sport touring segment means "has a model for sale." BMW (16,330 total units sold in the U.S. in 2015, a quarter of which were the R1200GS) and Yamaha (don't have numbers for them) are pretty much competing for scraps. Yamaha, by the way, is doing the same booming business in Asia with small bikes as Honda. I don't blame Honda for dropping out of the segment. It's not a profitable market, and they're in business to make money for their stockholders.

--Mark
 
Honda may not make the bikes you want to buy but they seem to be very comfortable selling more motorcycles that other people want to buy worldwide than anyone else. In the USA they are right behind Harley in market share and these two take over 50% of the US market. The 500s and 700s are a big part of being the best selling Japanese brand in the USA. The other Japanese brands aren't even close to Honda in sales and market share here - the Three share the other 50%. BMW sells about 1.5% of the US market. They make big news with new models but they sell small numbers of them in relationship to the whole.

The average age of an ST-O member is probably closer to 60 than 50. How many more motorcycles is our aging-out of riding demographic going to buy? The growth in the US for Honda the next 10 years will continue to be mid displacement motorcycles and ATVs, both single seat and side by side utility vehicles. Motorcycling is in decline in the US, ATVs are growing.

In Europe the NC750 is Honda's best selling motorcycle. Over half sold are DCT models. For 4 years it has been one of the top 10 of all motorcycle models sold and the new 2016 Africa Twin is selling as fast as dealers get them and it appears DCT will be more than half of these as well. When it's released in the US in two weeks or three weeks it will sell extremely well. Honda's problem will be getting limited numbers in the US market and earthquake damage to the plant that builds them.
 
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I read an interesting marketing study indicating Honda built too many small bike for India in the 125 and smaller class, thousands of them sitting on show room floors and factories (I think it was in 2014). What they were looking for where the 250 - 126 class bikes, Honda didn't have enough. Honda lost profits on this (over all profits up but short of goals). The study indicated a real desire for 800cc or similar size machines in India. No, they aren't interested in 1200's. But I see Triumph, Ducati, and BMW working hard for that 800cc market. Honda better look out for that higher end 800cc market and get their accessories up to snuff. Honda is behind here and everyone in the World knows it. The larger cc bikes indicate larger salaries. Still doesn't help the American market.

I'm still eyeing that BMW 1200RT and wish for the Motus. And I'm getting way to good at working on this ST. ;)
 
MinnFallST said:
So the CTX and f6B were designed for India? I would think if they had resources for those designs, they could design better bikes for our market. My theory is that there marketing or design vision went awry and they need to right the ship. It would tell a lot though to see real numbers on what the market in the U.S. is compared to other places. Why isn't Harley chasing the money in emerging markets?
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I concur with the point, but chose not to comment on it in post #2 for simplicity sake. Similarly, there are many threads/comments lamenting this point about Honda too. :)

Honda's designers, when they're allowed to build something for the US market, seem to miss what we (mostly aging sport/touring riders) think they should build. And many new Honda models are too late and 'unpretty' in our eyes.
 
I seriously considered the VFR1200X....sat on one at my dealership last week. I considered until I started searching for aftermarket support for this bike in the US and there isn't any yet. That makes sense since it's a new bike but if you want bags, wind screen or a seat you will have to wait. I hope they sell enough so that there is a need for aftermarket suppliers to provide options but I could see where this might hurt sales. Hope I'm wrong....time will tell.

It does seem that the aftermarket has worked hard to have materials for the Africa Twin before it's release......in stark contrast to the Crostourer.
Mike
 
I bought my ST in 97 for one, and only one, reason. Yamaha/Suzuki didn't have an equivalent model at that time, and I didn't want a Concours or BMW, so it was an easy choice. I don't really care whose bike I buy. The fact that Honda no longer makes a sport touring bike is fine with me, when I'm ready to buy a new bike I'll buy one from a mfr who does.
 
I thought about the options to the ST1300 for all of about five minutes - same process either in 2004 or 2016. If you want a stable, well built, dependable, well handling, easy to work on, long lasting, inexpensive to maintain motorcycle for long distance travel the ST1300 is the choice among competitors yamaha, kawasaki, and bmw. If you want new shiny stuff well....

In eight years I traveled over 55,000 miles on my ST1300 and I had one repair - a drive flange bearing which I replaced myself.
 
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As I stated in an earlier post somewhere, One reason why Honda does not come out with more options in the ST or CTX is because they don't want their flagship (GW) in jeopardy. The FJR now has a cc and other nice features. If these were installed in an ST or a CTX, I don't believe there would be a need for the GW. You could buy either the ST or CTX either one of which is suitable for long distance two up touring for thousands less than the GW.
 
Honda has adopted the same business model most everyone else has.
Employees who were really passionate about motorcycling have been replaced. Those running the company ride every MBA bandwagon acronym program that comes along. Those are really fantastic for convincing the clueless that they really understand the business and its future.
When I decided to retire my GL1000's, Honda almost lost my future business. Nothing new struck a chord with me at all. I have seen nothing from Honda that will convince me to stay once my ST passes on. Too many computers, too much plastic, too much modern art, too difficult to work on. Maybe it has become 'Nothing to see here, folks...just move along'.
 
Reginald said:
I'm still eyeing that BMW 1200RT and wish for the Motus. And I'm getting way to good at working on this ST.
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Had a test drive for about an hour on the Motus. Wick fast,great brakes, pretty good handleing & nice engine & sound. It would make a nice 2nd bike. I have the K16 & I wouldn't trade it for the Motus. If I still had my ST I wouldn't trade it either. Reg take a good hard hard look at the 1200RT...its a great bike.
 
Maybe there aren't enough nice people left in the U.S. for Honda to bother with. :rolleyes:
 
dduelin said:
Honda may not make the bikes you want to buy but they seem to be very comfortable selling more motorcycles that other people want to buy worldwide than anyone else. In the USA they are right behind Harley in market share and these two take over 50% of the US market. The other Japanese brands aren't even close to Honda in sales and market share here - the Three share the other 50%. BMW sells about 1.5% of the US market. They make big news with new models but they sell small numbers of them in relationship to the whole.
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While it's true Honda's market share is second only to Harley and together they hold ~50% of the market, but it's a hell of a distant second -15% Honda to 35% Harley. What is not true is that none of the other manufacturers are close to Honda. Yamaha holds 13% of the US market and due to their better focus on enthusiasts than Honda, I would not be surprised to see them pass Honda if not this year then next year. The data is from 2014, so maybe it's already happened?

The hot segment is indeed ADV touring. Honda has finally (almost) joined the party with the new Africa Twin, which I predict will do well but also they are bringing in the VRF1200 cross-tourer. Depending on how long this segment stays hot, they may be too late with too little.

http://www.statista.com/statistics/252210/market-share-of-major-motorcycle-manufacturers-in-the-us/
 
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etalors said:
As I stated in an earlier post somewhere, One reason why Honda does not come out with more options in the ST or CTX is because they don't want their flagship (GW) in jeopardy. The FJR now has a cc and other nice features. If these were installed in an ST or a CTX, I don't believe there would be a need for the GW. You could buy either the ST or CTX either one of which is suitable for long distance two up touring for thousands less than the GW.
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Good point about protecting the Gold Wing.
 
Oh well, I guess if I end up buying a new bike I will just pick what I think is the best at the time. Those BMW's are pretty darn expensive though. The FJR not so much. The thing that ticked me off is that I saw a post about adding a cruise control to the ST1300 and it seemed kind of ridiculous to have to do all that modifying. For now I am happy with my ST, except I am thinking of adding a...
 
I have already made the Switch and am quite happy with the competition.;):D Go for it. You will be pleasantly surprised.
 
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