Another Uncle Phil Interesting Running Mystery

I sure hope you get this figured out by Saturday. I hate to think the Der Dutchman RTE will be confounded by this conundrum.:biggrin:
no worries, he has plenty more ST1100s to choose from.

based on the fuel system diagnostics its looking more like ignition troubles. I can't say with any degree of certainty that you're having ignition issues, but just because your coil resistance measurements check out OK isn't enough to rule it out.

The high voltage side of the coil, including the wires and plug caps can fail within a very narrow operating window that can't be measured with a multimeter. The kV required to jump the spark varies as a function of things like RPM, engine load, etc. The coil can be working perfectly at some RPM and load, while failing at others, in somewhat random order. Its possible heat also has an influence on it. To rule out the ignition you need to swap the coils to known good units, along with the wires and plug caps. Since you have the parts, all you have to lose is the time it takes to do the swap, but it will answer the question as to if its spark related.

tnbill's suggestion regarding the igniter box and pulse generator would also be worth investigating, and since you have spare parts it doesn't hurt to rule things out one at a time.
 
based on the fuel system diagnostics its looking more like ignition troubles. I can't say with any degree of certainty that you're having ignition issues, but just because your coil resistance measurements check out OK isn't enough to rule it out.
+1 Heat can affect either side of the coils causing a momentary (as in temporary) break or arc that causes a reduction in output. Allowed to cool the problem area contracts and all is well. The fact that it "fixes" itself without requiring a stop doesn't necessarily rule out suspect coils. It could just mean that in that instance heat and vibration weren't sufficient to stop the bike. A coil swap tedious as it may be would rule that out or find the problem.

The plugs apparently read well but unless the problem were really severe (yeah as if requiring a stop weren't) it's possible that iridium plugs allow for burning off any telltale evidence of coils misbehaving.
 
I hate to just keep 'replacing parts' but at this point I don't know of a better strategy.
Fortunately for me that doesn't cost much besides times! ;)
I figure the next step is to replace the coils, then the plugs, then the pulse generator (a major pain in the anatomy).
If that doesn't resolve it, I guess I can always replace the carbs.
Is the 'spark ignitor' what I call the Ignition Control Module?
 
and what is the pulse generator?
It is a circuit that generates a pulse - spike in voltage to signal something else. Often a Hall effect sensor - i.e. a magnet or induction loop is used to sense wheel, crankshaft, etc. speeds. The pulse would trigger the spark coils for each spark plug.
 
yes.
I would change the easy stuff first than in order of difficulty till its either fixed or till you get to the most difficult
Well, I just changed out the coils.
I will say this from the 'experience' - if anybody asks you to help or to swap coils on a ST1100 -

RUN DON'T WALK TO THE NEAREST EXIT, BLOCK THEIR PHONE NUMBER, AND UNFOLLOW THEM ON FARCEBOOK!!!

You will learn new words to say, create new words to say and question your sanity (if you have any left) in the process.
BTW, they will come out from the top so you don't have remove so much body work.
I have not started it yet with the 'new' coils - that is for another day Scarlet ...
 
My first thought: coils. Try swapping out the coils with a set from one of your other bikes. Use the spark plug wires from the other bike as well for the initial test.
 
My first thought: coils. Try swapping out the coils with a set from one of your other bikes. Use the spark plug wires from the other bike as well for the initial test.
See post #47. ;)
One thing I do not do - remove parts from a good running ST1100 to diagnose one that isn't running.
That just means you have 2 ST1100s with issues then ... :biggrin:
With 4 parts bikes, I have plenty of 'spares'.
 
Things that I have come across that created similar ish symptoms

Copper wire in HT lead near spark plug corroding (green verdigris) can't think why it would work after a rest.

Water in fuel - pooling in the bottom of the filter (which is horizontal) and building up so that it is getting through to carbs. Normally the fuel would flow over the top of a small amount of water. Stopping, cooling snd pressure changes may alter the level of water. Suggests a pool of water in the bottom of the tank.

Carb vacuum tubes cracked / split. The symptoms sound like mine behaved when one hose detached at the lower end after its first garage service. A cracked tube may be more prone to let in air when the tube gets warm and seal up when it cools off a bit.

Dodgy fuel pump relay contacts. Switch it with a headlight relay.
(Does the ST1100 have a fuel pump relay ? Not such a stupid question if you read the technical bit below.)


All the above suggestion fall into the 'clutching at straws' category. The suggestion below falls into the 'clutching at thin air category', but since I came across this one day and it intrigued me, I worked out how it worked.

Basically, there is an electronic device on the ST1100 that detects when the engine is not running and turns off the fuel pump.
It turns on the fuel pump every time there is an ignition pulse. There is a delay circuit which turns it off if a new ignition pulse doesn't turn it in again. So the fuel pump is always turned when the engine is running, but it is always in the process of being turned off after each ignition pulse -there is a time delay to it being turned off which means it should not get turned off before the next ignition pulse.

I cannot remember whether it does this directly, or whether a fuel pump relay is involved.

My attempt at a technical explanation - from memory. There is a device that keeps fuel flowing while the engine is running. It is turned on by a silicon controlled rectifier - SCR. Basically it is a diode with an extra control lead. Electricity doesn't flow through it until it is turned on, which will happen as soon as it gets a single pulse of power on the extra control lead. Electricity flows through the diode, once it has received a pulse on the control leg. It turns off if there is no power on the positive leg. You can turn off an SCR by momentarily attaching the positive side to earth, or by shorting the positive and negative legs, by-passing the SCR.
I think that this device is used to control the fuel pump relay. Although it could be used instead of a fuel pump relay.
The coil input is firing up to 18000 times per minute. 300 times per second.
That quick pulse repeatedly turns on the SCR which turns on the fuel pump.
The positive leg is permanently attached to earth - but through a capacitor and relay.. That combination provides a time delay before the SCR positive side is fully connected to earth and the SCR is turned off. The intention is that the delay is longer than the time it takes to get another ignition pulse to turn the SCR on again.
The engine runs at say a minimum of 600 rpm. So that is 20 ignition coil pulses every second. One every 1/20th of a second
So the SCR is turned on every .05 of a second, and it will stay on until the input is connected to earth
But The capacitor / resistor drains will connect the positive leg to earth after a time delay. Say after half a second.
The regular pulse from the ignition coil keeps the SCR, and therefore the fuel pump, turned on.
If it doesn't receive another pulse, then the resistor / capacitor combination will turn off the SCR within half a second (say)
It is a safety mechanism so that if the engine stops, the fuel will turn off. While the engine is running, it stays on.

But if that time delay mechanism breaks down and is turning off the fuel pump before it gets turned on again by the ignition pulse, then the fuel pump motor may not be running as it should. It could be being turned on and off very rapidly.

Why would this be affected by heat ? If you read the italicised bit, you will see that the electronic device is dependent upon a resistance, and resistance is affected by heat. Also by corrosion and dry soldered joints. It may be causing the fuel pump to turn off and in at a rapid rate, rather than keeping it in continuously.

I'm sorry. I do not know where this device is or what it is called. I came across it a few years ago as a circuit diagram and I worked out what it was doing. The ST1300 doesn't employ the same technique. But having described its behaviour, someone else may know what and where it is located. Basically it is an electronic fuel cut off switch.
 
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John - There is definitely a fuel pump relay on the ST1100 - I've had to replace one before.
About the other 'bit', I've never encountered it.
To eliminate those 'pieces', I ran a wire from my aux fuse block directly to the 'hot' on the fuel pump.
This would make the pump 'on' whenever the key was switched on with no 'interference'.
So if that circuitry was the problem my 'jumper' should have eliminated that - but the problem still existed.
I just replaced the coils and wires (see post above - what a pain in the anatomy!) but haven't fired her up as of yet.
Still have quite a few wires and stuff to hook back up after the 'coil-indectomy'.
 
There is definitely a fuel pump relay on the ST1100 - I've had to replace one before.
Where is this located? Left side of cowl stay, labelled as fuel cut relay on fiche?
I ran a wire from my aux fuse block directly to the 'hot' on the fuel pump.
This would make the pump 'on' whenever the key was switched on with no 'interference'.
When I jump the fuel tank like that the key does not have to be on as I recall (only way the fuel pump will run at the moment on my garaged '91 and why I've hung a fuel container to gravity feed). Only needs that positive connection.

Good luck Phil. Lots of ideas here!
 
Where is this located? Left side of cowl stay, labelled as fuel cut relay on fiche?

When I jump the fuel tank like that the key does not have to be on as I recall (only way the fuel pump will run at the moment on my garaged '91 and why I've hung a fuel container to gravity feed). Only needs that positive connection.

Good luck Phil. Lots of ideas here!
IIRC you have the location correct.
My fuse block is only on when the key is on - so my jumper would work fine in case of an emergency on the road if the relay was bad.
 
Your collective expertise in these matters is far above my own…I have a headache now. I should just be happy my bikes work…for now.o_O
I reckon if you keep 4 on the road of varying ages and you ride a lot of miles you will eventually 'run into' about every problem you could imagine. ;)
And some that you can't ...
 
Another thing we know -
9. It ain't the coils.

At this point, all I can do is start all over again and go through the stuff a lot slower and see if anything jumps out.
That is the joy of an intermittent failure - a bit like Big Foot hunting ...
 
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