Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 20??

[STPaulK]

Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

Vfr1200f .......
The king of the "why vfr1200f is not selling" forums.

I'm not sure why you keep stating this as fact. My Euro riding friends tell me this model is one of the better selling large cc pig sportbikes and I've read the same thing on the VFR forum (which I frequent as a former VFR owner.) But I guess neither of us will know for sure but I doubt it's a stretch to assume that Honda sells more VFR's than it does ST1300's. The fact they are using the platform for other models is a sign that it isn't going anywhere anytime soon and that is probably where the 1300 demise starts. Why would Honda update the 1300 to a 1400 or something probably heavier when they have identified this "touring sport" and adventure bike as larger growth opportunities?

The Moto Guzzi sport touring model is aimed directly at current MG owners and maybe BMW owners. They probably did not start with a ground up design and at best, they are serving a niche market of high brow Italians and cult fans. I have yet to even see one on the US highways.

 

[Badger]

Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

Same here I have yet to even see a vfr1200f in here California USA.
Honestly, since anyone can lie (people from Europe) without any consequence, I don't believe that vfr1200f sells in Europe either. Maybe it is a niche market just like motoguzzi fans. We'll see.

 

[GlenT]

Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

Same here I have yet to even see a vfr1200f in here California USA.
Honestly, since anyone can lie (people from Europe) without any consequence, I don't believe that vfr1200f sells in Europe either. Maybe it is a niche market just like motoguzzi fans. We'll see.

Honestly, why would anyone lie about owning a particular model of motorcycle??

We do know that in the UK you can access statistics about the yearly registration of new motorcycles by brand and model. BIKE magazine often quotes these statistics in their reviews as a measure of popularity. And BIKE is a well-respected EU publication.

We also know that the Honda CrossTourer is based on the VFR1200 motor, which has been specifically retuned for touring. And BIKE magazine rated it (last July) as having a better motor than the R1200GS (I quoted from that article earlier).

We also know that Honda planned a touring version of VFR1200 years ago, because we have all seen the drawings. It included a different steering head angle (article noted that the frame was constructed modular to allow for a different head section to be welded in) plus more upright riding position, larger fairing, larger tank and stock bags. It looked like an ST and it smelled like an ST. But Honda never built it. And as the years go by, it becomes more and more likely that they will never build it.

 

[Mellow]

Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

We also know that Honda planned a touring version of VFR1200 years ago, because we have all seen the drawings.

I don't believe those were HONDA drawings but a magazine's rendering of what THEY THOUGHT Honda would come up with - I could be wrong but that's how I remember it. Honda doesn't usually tip us off with much more than an concept bike until it's ready to be shipped to showroom floors.

 

[GlenT]

Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

I don't believe those were HONDA drawings but a magazine's rendering of what THEY THOUGHT Honda would come up with - I could be wrong but that's how I remember it. Honda doesn't usually tip us off with much more than an concept bike until it's ready to be shipped to showroom floors.

I think that those drawings were originally posted by MCN and were supposed to have been from patent applications (if I remember correctly -- its been a few years).

I think that this was it:

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/New-bikes/2009/July/jul1609-New-VRF1200T-Pan-European-replacement-revealed/

A follow-up article, from 2011:

http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-news-new-bikes/whats-happened-to-the-vfr1200-tourer/17314.html

 

[BakerBoy]

Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

And the bike was also 'sketched' in this 2011 Patent for Honda's motorcycle crumple zone and airbag:

 

[nhdiesel]

Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

Badger's post #553 hit it well.

Why are we comparing our sales to scooters and tiny bikes in 3rd world countries? If that is what matters, Honda better pull out of the U.S. completely with all models. Hey, the 'Wing doesn't sell as well as a scooter in S.E.A. Numbers sold doesn't directly translate into profit, and it's a completely different market- both location, and type of bike. And part of what DOES make those profitable is that they are rarely updated. Someone buying a tiny bike as a utility vehicle only cares about reliability, not the latest gadgets.

If the VFR is selling great in Europe, but not the U.S., why are they still attempting to sell it here? It takes many millions of dollars to introduce a new model in the U.S., and millions to keep it each year. Safety & EPA testing, advertising, etc.

BMW, Triumph, and others seem to manage to make sport tourers at a profit. O.K., so they don't sell as many as Honda would like to...but they are at a profit, and still manage to make enough to continually update them. Why didn't Honda at least change some plastic & add the frills many people have been screaming for back around 2008? They could have easily updated an existing platform to make it more modern without spending a ton. It works for Yamaha. Most of the tests of the ST., even the latest ones, complain out the dated looks & lack of gadgets the other brands come with more than the basic platform itself.

Either take the model seriously and do something with it to keep it competitive, or drop it. Don't drag out the outdated design nobody is buying any more. Yes, I know a few of us on here don't mind the outdated design...but most of the buying public...those buying brand new bikes is all Honda cares about...want the most bang for their buck, and want to see the gadgets. I have owned & enjoyed an '81 Ford Fairmont and a '79 Chevette. That doesn't mean I would go pay $30k for new ones today. For those who are quite happy with their 1100s (and no reason not to be), would you be willing to go pay $15k for a brand new one off the showroom floor tomorrow? Regardless of what my financial position was, I'd never go pay the $18k sticker, or even $16k marked down, for a brand new ST1300. I would go buy a very low mileage used one for half that and own the same bike; and having watched many of our members and other ST purchasers, that is quite common. Why pay a premium for the same thing that you can get for a fraction of that price?

 

[GlenT]

Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

nhdiesel, all your arguments are comparitive too. You bought an '06 ST1300 and (I presume) liked it enough to keep it for 7 years. At the time, you thought it was the best bike for you. But now, you look around and see other, better bikes. So what changed? The ST1300 is essential the same bike you bought and were happy with. It is only by comparison that you have become dissatisfied, because you believe the grass is greener on the other side. If everyone rode ST13's would you still be dissatisfied?

The thing you don't seem to realize, is that Honda doesn't owe us a new ST13. Maybe Honda will take your advice and drop the ST13 completely. Maybe they already have.

 

[DaveST]

Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

I'm looking into a XR650L. Honda has been making that same bike since 1992, except for the paint color and up dated graphics! LOL. Suzuki DR650 is modern. They have made that since 1996!

 

[George]

Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

Buy whatever and... GO RIDE!!!!

(Anyone want a well used ST1100 standard or ABS, make me an offer. )

 

[Cunados]

Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

At the time, you thought it was the best bike for you. But now, you look around and see other, better bikes. So what changed? The ST1300 is essential the same bike you bought and were happy with. It is only by comparison that you have become dissatisfied, because you believe the grass is greener on the other side.

Exactly the reason I politely decline offers from friends or salesmen to take new bikes or cars for a spin ... If I don't know what I'm missing how can I miss it?

MTGMTT

 

[nhdiesel]

Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

A couple flaws with your thinking Glen. First, I bought my ST used a little over 2 years ago. For the price I paid I could have bought a new DL 1000 or a used ST. I considered a new or used BMW but the closest dealer was more than an hour from me, and I had friends with BMWs with mechanical issues. I really liked the features of the bikes though.

As for your theory about features, I'm sure glad cars have progressed beyond drum brakes, points ignition, and am radio. Progress is natural and I expect it with my bike just like anything else.

No, Honda doesn't owe us a bike. But why keep selling the same unchanged model few people are buying? Either axe it or update it.

Sent from my XT881 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Badger]

Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

Well said Nhdiesel. You are absolutely right. Sadly here in the forums there are some people who will defend Honda at any cost. They are either employee or they have the "my kid" syndrome. You know those people, they will protect their adult kids even the adult kid commit rape and murder... I think they totally understand you but they can not accept it.
I say; honda should take both wheels and the saddle bags off of st1300 so it will cost less for them. Since its market is small as some people say in this forum, so WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL? You want an st1300 go get your own wheels and bags. WE DON'T SELL AS MUCH ANYWAY....

I believe it might be true that vfr engine might be better than gs engine. It can be discussed since they are different twin boxer to v4. I think they are both good in their own area. For racing and power I'll go v4. But gs engine has better gas mileage and easier service.

One more thing; vfr sold most 2010 bikes around 9k dollars in california due to no sale. For the price many bought them and I can not blame them. Now, they are what 17k dollars for the 2013 models. Who in the right mind will pay that money since they will loose 8k dollars in the first year and maybe more. THAT IS CRAZY!!! You can buy a 2010 used one for 7 to 8k dollars and the 2013 with almost no update it is 17k? Now honda people can you please justify this one ?(i am sure you will...at least die trying )

We can say all bad things about bmw but I never see this big price drop happening to bmw. Their second hand sales are the BEST at the very least.

 

[Blrfl]

Sadly here in the forums there are some people who will defend Honda at any cost. They are either employee or they have the "my kid" syndrome.

Please be aware that if you're going to accuse members of this site of being paid shills for Honda, you'll be expected to prove those accusations or be labeled a troll.

--Mark

 

[Nevada]

Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

So I've been thinking for months now about this. The questoin I ponder the most is "If Honda annouced an ST replacment this fall, would I buy one?" The thought spawns a number of follow-on questions rolling through my head...

• What kind of pie goes best with fall rides? (Trick question! Peach Cobbler. )

!! WRONG !!

ALL Pie goes best with fall rides.

 

[Nevada]

Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

It took BMW nearly 70 years to build 2 million total bikes. They don't sell in the millions and that is what you don't seem to understand. Get your facts in order. BMW sells about 100,000 bikes a year around the globe and a few more than 10,000 a year in the USA. That is less than 2 % of the US market share and 1 % of the global market. They are a niche builder that sells to a small number of well defined people. Honda sells more than 2 million motorcycles a year globally and 250,000 last year in the USA. The ST rider does not represent the typical Honda buyer and is a very small part of Honda's market worldwide yet a new ST would represent a large investment in R & D at a time when the market for large expensive bike virtually collapsed after 2008 and is yet slow to rebound - and in the case of the sport tourer continues to shrink as demand for big adventure bikes grows. Many if us including me want Honda to update the ST platform. No disagreement there I just don't think I would if I was Honda so what they have (haven't done) makes sense. You know the ST1100 was unchanged for 12 years.

Ahh, a slight clarification is in order. The number of motorcycles Honda sold in 2012 is somewhat different from the numbers noted above. Per their Annual Report, Honda sold 12,559 thousand units, aka motorcycles and scooters. Of those, 107 thousand units were sold in North America, 198 thousand in Europe. As a comparison, BMW is on track this year to sell 131k motorcycles and scooters (maxi). That's what Honda sells in 4 days.

Another salient fact that can be divined from their Annual Report. Honda knows what in the heck they're doing when it comes to the motorcycle business. That portion of their business provided 17% of their sales revenue, and 40% of their profit. The rest of the profit was from their Financial Services business. They lost money in their Automobile and Power Products divisions. Honda's motorcycle business has consistently better margins than their cars. We might not be thrilled with how they're treating our beloved STeeds, but they ain't stupid.

 

[Dinkie Diesel]

Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

We might not be thrilled with how they're treating our beloved STeeds, but they ain't stupid.

Couldn't agree more!

 

[GlenT]

Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

Sadly here in the forums there are some people who will defend Honda at any cost. They are either employee or they have the "my kid" syndrome. You know those people, they will protect their adult kids even the adult kid commit rape and murder... I think they totally understand you but they can not accept it.

Boy, you are way out on a limb, here.

1. Honda doesn't need to be defended. They do what they do for profit. End of story.

2. The ST13 is a good bike and remains a good bike. Are there better bikes out there? Sure there are. If I was buying a sport touring bike today, it would be a Triumph Trophy. But I (along with many other ST owners) would probably not buy a sport touring bike -- perhaps never again. I would buy an adventure touring bike. They are lighter and easier to manouever. And to be honest, they are more fun to ride. And this is a factor that Honda often seems to miss -- the fun factor. If I was looking for a new bike today, there is an 80% chance that Triumph is building it.

3. All the evidence suggests that Honda planned to release a VFR1200T as the replacement for the ST about two years ago. And for financial reasons (what other reasons could there be???) they decided to against it. And as the years go by, it becomes less and less likely that it will ever be revived. It appears to have been all designed and ready to go, and they backed away from that investment. Maybe pricing is the key. Lots of discussion in this forum from people saying "I want a bike that costs $10k or less." Maybe, when Honda figured out what the VFR1200T was going to have to sell for, they looked at how many units they could sell, and they decided that there was just not a big enough audience for it in today's market. But you can keep on hoping. The old saying goes, "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride."

4. Why doesn't Honda kill the ST13? Maybe its because they are obligated to service their police bike market. If they are bringing bikes and parts into the US for those, they might as well keep selling a few at retail. I would expect that they are bound to longer term contracts for the police market.

I suggest someone starts a new thread with a poll: "What would you be will to pay today, for a new VFR1200T?" Give some price ranges from $10k to $25k and see what kind of response you get. Let's see what people are willing to pay for what was described as "the world’s most technologically-advanced bike" (quote from MCN).

 

[Bones]

Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

4. Why doesn't Honda kill the ST13? Maybe its because they are obligated to service their police bike market.

The Victoria, British Columbia Police Department, which was the first PD to adopt the ST1300 as a police cruiser in North America, recently replaced their fleet with Victory police bikes. They wanted to buy a new fleet of ST1300s but Honda would not sell them ST1300s for police duty. (That from the head motorcycle trainer on the force, who addressed WeSTOC attendees and who I spoke with personally.) For whatever that adds to the discussion.

 

[GlenT]

Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

The Victoria, British Columbia Police Department, which was the first PD to adopt the ST1300 as a police cruiser in North America, recently replaced their fleet with Victory police bikes. They wanted to buy a new fleet of ST1300s but Honda would not sell them ST1300s for police duty. (That from the head motorcycle trainer on the force, who addressed WeSTOC attendees and who I spoke with personally.) For whatever that adds to the discussion.

That is interesting. Was that Ryan or Paul that you spoke with? I took one of their civilian advanced riding courses in Victoria on my ST13 a few years ago.