My Linked Brakes

Igofar

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Look down,fall down….
You have to trust technique and turn your head.
More than half the people who swear up and down that they turn their heads are speechless when shown a video of themselves.
When you think you’ve turned your head far enough, do it a little more.
 

Kevcules

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Yeah I think that was a contributing factor or you've nailed it outright, after reading some I went for a short trip on the bicycle with the dog leash, I never look at the bicycle. Short trip on the ST without looking at the ST, focusing more on where I want to get to, and I think that might be where I made my previous mistake, short trip on the XL, there again, I never look at the XL.
Another thing I found with the ST early on was that when the windshield was up, I tended to look at it and if affected / distracted my balance at slower speeds.
I'm far from a good rider, but I do find that moving up towards the gas tank as far as you can on your seat helps with balance when turning tight corners with the heavy bike. Try it and see if you notice a difference.
 

Igofar

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While the little minion in the video looked like a cute banana, he probably would have trouble passing an officers course because he was not turning his head enough.
Large undirected circles are easy, throw some cones in the mix to narrow your path and you may find your head needs to be turned more.
 

dduelin

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While the little minion in the video looked like a cute banana, he probably would have trouble passing an officers course because he was not turning his head enough.
Large undirected circles are easy, throw some cones in the mix to narrow your path and you may find your head needs to be turned more.
I'm not a motor officer and not interested in or planning to pass an officer's course nor was the OP. I'm an average recreational rider that likes to handle his motorcycles in close quarters with confidence so I practice work like this. It works for me, I look where I want to go, my head is turned enough for the intended line which is delineated by the painted lines and parking bumper. There's plenty of room to critique my riding as I'm always looking to improve and look forward to seeing your slow speed video we can see how you do it.

Those painted white lines are 9 feet wide, 16 - 18' circles, on a slope, up against a concrete parking bumper just for fun. Let's see you do yours now Larry. It's easy.
 

Igofar

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You'd look huge if you were on a Honda Grom :rofl1:
And with 8 Tip overs in your signature, you'd think you would have figured out to move closer to the center of gravity, and turn your head more.
Using your intended line as the painted lines and parking bumper only give you one area to worry about.
If you want to improve, like you say you do, try some cone patterns etc.
As far as having FUN, these guys look like they are having fun....
I've got to find me some silly string now :rofl1:
 

jfheath

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I was going by JFHeath's Going on an Air Hunt - shows two lines out of the Brake Pedal MC, one to the Delay Valve the other to the rear centre piston?
That is correct. The line going forward goes into the delay valve. Two lines come out of it, one line to each of the front centre pistons.
The caption in steps 5 and 6 of the Air Hunt article describes what happens in the delay valve.

The Delay Valve
The rear brake pedal activates the centre piston on both front calipers.
The pressure is processed through a 2-stage delay valve which allows the rear brake centre piston and the front left centre piston to be activated immediately.
The front right centre piston is activated when the pressure at the pedal increases. This allows slow speed control of the bike with the rear brake pedal without causing the front forks to dive.
 

jfheath

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Also - reading through other comments.

The Proportional Control Valve increases pressure to the rear outer pistons until a certain point is reached. That point is when the strength of a spring inside the PCV is overcome and it allows a spool inside the PCV to move to reduce the amount of pressure to the rear outer pistons. It doesn't maintain the existing pressure. I suppose the logic is that the front brakes are being applied harder, so the rear of the bike is getting lighter, and this prevents the rear from locking up.

The Delay Valve is normally open to both centre pistons. Otherwise you would not be able to get fluid into the right hand side centre piston. When fluid pressure builds up by touching the brake pedal, the pressure moves a spool to shut off the path to the right hand centre piston. As pressure increases, it overcomes a spring holding a second (concentric) spool in place which allows the pressure to reach the front right centre piston.

The rear pedal will activate the two outer pistons at the rear because the fluid from the rear master cylinder flows into the inlet port of the SMC. Pressure can get past the primary seal when the SMC is not activated - the seal just yields with pressure from that direction. (So when the bike is in the garage, press the brake pedal, all three pistons of the rear caliper will activate).

On the move, the rear outers will be activated by the action of the brake pedal - either by the action of the front left caliper operating the SMC, or by the rear pedal pushing fluid past the primary seal in the SMC. I don't know, but I guess that the SMC movement wins out on that race. It doesn't matter - because the PCV reduces pressure when it overcomes the spring.
 
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don’t use the brakes, use the friction zone and momentum.
I’m guessing if you fell down, you were looking down, and not where you needed to go.
use a steady slightly elevated throttle, friction zone to control the power to the rear tire and rear brake to control the speed. Steer the bike with your head and eyes. I've took a class with moto officers a couple weeks ago and that's the way they showed us. Yep those great big cones make it harder not to look at them. Them damn saddlebags will get them as well.
 
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While the little minion in the video looked like a cute banana, he probably would have trouble passing an officers course because he was not turning his head enough.
Large undirected circles are easy, throw some cones in the mix to narrow your path and you may find your head needs to be turned more.
For most people but some say head turn is over rated. :) Some people also do a good job of turning their heads 90 degrees and keeping their eyes looking straight forward. I had a student from Thailand taking the BRC1 a few years back. He had been riding in Thailand for years but needed to take the class to get his NY motorcycle endorsement. He looked straight at the ground doing u-turns. I tried to get him to turn his head but he just smiled and looked at the ground each time. He could also do it at full handlebar lock in both directions. I said who am I to tell him how to do it when he does it better than I can.
 

Igofar

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With someone like him that has natural ability’s to adapt and make poor techniques work for him, you teach him a better way to do it, and let him evolve into an even better rider with more skills .
 

dduelin

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You'd look huge if you were on a Honda Grom :rofl1:
And with 8 Tip overs in your signature, you'd think you would have figured out to move closer to the center of gravity, and turn your head more.
Using your intended line as the painted lines and parking bumper only give you one area to worry about.
If you want to improve, like you say you do, try some cone patterns etc.
As far as having FUN, these guys look like they are having fun....
I've got to find me some silly string now :rofl1:
If there was a way to check you'd see the 8 tip overs have been on my profile for probably 14 years, since the great ST-O server crash of 2006 or 2007. If I was worried about the admiration of others I'd take them off my profile. You don't practice slow maneuvers without dropping the bike now and then and the ST was good for me to learn on. The stock tip over protection is awesome, I'd leave the bags at home and practice a couple nights a week at a nearby empty parking lot marked with 9' x 18' spaces. In a month I was confident I was master of my machine, not the other way around.

When Jacksonville hosted a national or regional motor officer competition 10 or 12 years ago they did leave the painted marks for the course cones on the parking lot surface where the competition was held. Attempting the course actually piqued my interest in upping my skills from basic U's and full lock circles that I was posting on my YouTube channel back then.

I might do it all wrong compared to an expert like you but I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut something simple like a video of you turning basic circles, U's and 8's on a flat parking lot is not something you would ever be able to post on this or any public forum. Will that dog hunt?
 

paulcb

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I’ve ridden with Dave, and I’ve ridden with many, many riders at various ST functions over the past 8 years. Dave is literally the only rider I had a hard time keeping up with, and sometimes couldn’t. He’s a really, really good rider. Period.
 
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The Proportional Control Valve increases pressure to the rear outer pistons until a certain point is reached. That point is when the strength of a spring inside the PCV is overcome and it allows a spool inside the PCV to move to reduce the amount of pressure to the rear outer pistons. It doesn't maintain the existing pressure.
There is something missing here.

First:

The Proportional Control Valve increases pressure to the rear outer pistons until a certain point is reached.
I know this is conceptual semantics, but the PCV is not increasing any pressure!

In step one of the brake application, the PCV is just an open valve and does nothing more than letting the pressure generated at the SMC pass through to energize the rear two outers.

Then:

.......a spring inside the PCV is overcome and it allows a spool inside the PCV to move to reduce the amount of pressure to the rear outer pistons.....
I've been a fan of your excellent illustrations and explanations for the longest time and know how brilliant you are with these matters so I am sure you also know it cannot work like that. If all that happens is a spool moving, there is nothing preventing the SMC to keep maintaining the pressure that the spool motion is trying to reduce (unless of course the SMC bottoms out, which it doesn't (shouldn't!).

The step missing in the description, which is happening before the spool is set in motion, is the activation of the shut-off valve within the PCV, to isolate the brake line segment between the PCV and the caliper. It is only after this isolation occurs that the spool motion can effectively cause the line pressure to bleed down.

Then, just like for the front Delay Valve, there is also a delay built into the PCV: There is a delay between the valve shutting off and the start of the spool motion.

So, the sequence is as follows:

1) The PCV valve is open and the pressure to the rear keeps rising as the SMC is activated.
2) The PCV shuts off and isolates the rear and the pressure to the rear DOES remain constant at this point.
3) After a delay where the SMC pressure keeps increasing, the bleed down spool is activated and only then is the rear pressure reduced.

Then the pressure profile to the rear is as follows:

1) Rise
2) Plateau
3) Bleed down

As said, I'd be very curious to see somebody putting a pump and a gauge on a 10 or 15 years old PCV to check if it still works per design.
 
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Igofar

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I’ve ridden with Dave, and I’ve ridden with many, many riders at various ST functions over the past 8 years. Dave is literally the only rider I had a hard time keeping up with, and sometimes couldn’t. He’s a really, really good rider. Period.
You probably never road with Roger (TrapperDog) This man was probably the best rider I've seen for slow, tight work etc.
He would come over and do circles, in both directions, as well as figure eights in my driveway.
Its so sad that his riding days are behind him now since his tragic accident, as he had so much he could have taught people.
I'm proud to call him my friend.
 

Igofar

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If there was a way to check you'd see the 8 tip overs have been on my profile for probably 14 years, since the great ST-O server crash of 2006 or 2007. If I was worried about the admiration of others I'd take them off my profile. You don't practice slow maneuvers without dropping the bike now and then and the ST was good for me to learn on. The stock tip over protection is awesome, I'd leave the bags at home and practice a couple nights a week at a nearby empty parking lot marked with 9' x 18' spaces. In a month I was confident I was master of my machine, not the other way around.

When Jacksonville hosted a national or regional motor officer competition 10 or 12 years ago they did leave the painted marks for the course cones on the parking lot surface where the competition was held. Attempting the course actually piqued my interest in upping my skills from basic U's and full lock circles that I was posting on my YouTube channel back then.

I might do it all wrong compared to an expert like you but I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut something simple like a video of you turning basic circles, U's and 8's on a flat parking lot is not something you would ever be able to post on this or any public forum. Will that dog hunt?
I've never said I was better than anyone else, nor do I waste time making videos to try and impress folks with my skills.
My skill set(s) include training folks, and helping them repair/fix/correct/service their bikes so they will be safe out there.
You seem to be the only one to keep making things personal.
Suggesting to the OP that he may have looked down, or perhaps not turned his head far enough (which any good/skilled instructor would do) must have made you make it personal, by suggesting that you don't need to do that just because "you" don't do that. Its always about you...then you use that excuse to post yet another video showing how "you" ride, I guess showing that even folks who don't use proper skills to their advantage can ride in circles etc.
Its not about you or I Dave, it should be about helping other folks.
We can finally agree on one thing 100%, and that would be your correct in saying I would not be wasting my time posting video's to try and show off, or impress folks.
I'm just an rider, who is more interested in helping others, than show boating on You tube.
 
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So... there I was, finally getting a good sleep, had my head drilled and another implant set, a knew bone dome on my sinus floor, taking my T3s, my antibiotics, my other antibiotics, three in the morning, little hammy hamster spinning away, happy like he's got a brain, and the wheel stops.
hammy the hamster looks out at me and says, "you know what really happened to those two blue outer rear pistons don't you?" then he turns his little smug head back, and starts running on his wheel, running running running.
I ignore him, pretend to be sleeping, finally I can't stand it, "No hammy, I don't, and I seriously don't ____ a ____."
So little hamy starts running again, keeps running, running, running, I start to doze off, then he says " You know." running running running, "ok, well, if you don't care, I don't care, la la la la la"

So, the bleed down spool shift chamber port [for lack of a better word] whether it's along the spool or on the end, must be upstream of the point of closure in the PCV where it becomes exposed to an increase in pressure. It probably shifts back on a pressure drop via opposing spring force [guess]. I'm thinking somewhere along the spool in a separate chamber, when the spool does a high pressure shift the rear outer piston chamber becomes exposed to a piston or ball in another spring loaded chamber through a calibrated bleed port, the design of which determines the rate of effective hydraulic pressure drop at the outer brake calipers.
I haven't been able to find a cut away view of the PCV on the information super garbage way, but someone must have at least taken a hacksaw to one.
I'm going take one of my R410A High Side Gauges with a 800 PSI range, pull 29.92" vacuum, prime the bourdon tube solid with DOT4, connect it to the rear caliper bleed port and have my lovely assistant from the studio audience apply a gradual progressive pressure on the brake pedal.
I'm also [as in also along with MidLife] inclined to imagine that some of these PCVs might not be operating correctly; I wonder if a bleed / flush cleans them up adequately. Even if, the point of pressure cut off and the subsequent rate of pressure drop in the outer caliper chambers must be fixed and ideal for only a narrow range of conditions.
My 92 Honda Accord could not stop in certain medium density snow / snow pack conditions; in fact, it could barely slow down. It was never a problem, but you needed to understand what to do.
 
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I haven't been able to find a cut away view of the PCV ....
It is out there somewhere. Saw one a long while back but I think it was on a GL site, don't remember seing one here. As you say, somebody is also bound to have taken one apart and taken pics as well.

So, the bleed down spool shift chamber port [for lack of a better word] whether it's along the spool or on the end, must be upstream of the point of closure in the PCV where it becomes exposed to an increase in pressure. It probably shifts back on a pressure drop via opposing spring force [guess]. I'm thinking somewhere along the spool in a separate chamber, when the spool does a high pressure shift the rear outer piston chamber becomes exposed to a piston or ball in another spring loaded chamber through a calibrated bleed port, the design of which determines the rate of effective hydraulic pressure drop at the outer brake calipers.
Your hamster has to take this pressure drop through calibrated bleed port concept out of your head. That's good for a shock absorber where there is actual fluid displacement from one chamber to another, but not for a brake system where pressure is the only thing propagating through the lines, with no volume displacement (of course there is some displacement, due to line expansion, fluid compressibility, air bubbles and very small piston motion and pad wear, but it is small and not exploitable via calibrated orifice).

Your hamster should let you know that it is simpler than what you think.

The pressure reduction on the rear occurs very simply as the spool moves back and expands the effective volume of the isolated rear segment of the line. Really as simple as that.

And just as you describe, the spool is pulled back by a piston activated by the SMC pressure on the upstream side of the shut off and working against a spring.

The higher the SMC pressure, the more it pushes against the spring, the more it pulls the spool back, the more the rear line volume expands, and the more the rear pressure decreases. That's really all there is to it.

And conversely, if you slowly let go off the brake, the rear pressure will build back up to plateau value as the SMC pressure goes down from its emergency braking level. So you will regain some rear braking power after you let go from a handful on the front.

Am wondering what might happen when somebody cooks the rear (I hear it happens!) and pressures from to the fluid thermal expansion generate forces against the spring side that may exceed design specs?


I'm going take one of my R410A High Side Gauges with a 800 PSI range, pull 29.92" vacuum, prime the bourdon tube solid with DOT4, connect it to the rear caliper bleed port and have my lovely assistant from the studio audience apply a gradual progressive pressure on the brake pedal.
800 psi might be just right. Chances are the shut off will occur just below this value and you might be able to observe the plateau, where you keep increasing the load on the pedal and your gauge pressure remains constant.

However, am not sure you can generate enough upstream pressure with only the brake pedal to go up to where your gauge pressure will start to go down. I suppose upstream should be in the 1000 to 1500 psi range to get you there. You may have to use a pump to achieve that.

Or, maybe....

-- Strap the front brake lever to the grip, to make the front brake grab the rotor.
-- Weigh down the back of the bike to get the front wheel off the floor.
-- Run a tie down strap between the front wheel and rear wheel and start ratcheting to rotate the front wheel
-- With the front caliper being locked on the rotor, this should engage the SMC and maybe help get to the pressure you need to reach the bleed down stage?

Or anything else that your hamster may suggest to get there.

.... pressure drop in the outer caliper chambers must be fixed and ideal for only a narrow range of conditions.
Fixed it is. None of the sophistication you might get from a computerized system. Honda has decided how much braking power they will let you have on the rear, regardless of your load distribution on the bike. What they are leaving up to you though, is how hard you want to stomp on the middle rear.

Hope you'll soon introduce us to your lovely assistant.
 
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