Converting Linked Brakes Back To Traditional Motorcycle Brakes.

[Upt' North]

Nick,
It can and has been done and retaining the ABS is not problematic. Like I said, it's been done. Probably more than once.
But you'll never get a consensus that it is or isn't a good idea. We're all different afterall.
But if delinked correctly the brakes will be as safe as before, maybe even more so, maybe not.
I can't help with the specific procedures because I haven't done it, but I have spoken directly to others who have. I made sure when I bought my 11 (now sold) that it was none ABS.
Good luck.
Upt.

Edit, just read that you possibly live near the coast Nick, obviously you already know what that does to vulnerable components.

 

[Nick 1200]

yes it’s a very good system when working ok,but seem very over complicated,I would be happy enough not to have it,but then I come from a much easier moto guzzi or Bmw r100 brakes,I’ve been through it and yes smc had some stringy black stuff in it,kinda looked like silicon sealer/rtv cleaned that out brakes now come off just need to bleed it proper,just such a faff why put the PcV where it is and not behind the side panel or under the seat

 

[Igofar]

Modified brake systems, are a solution to a problem That only existed to folks who didn’t know how to properly and or correctly work on their bikes.
If you plan on keeping your bike forever, do what ever you want to with it, but if you ever sell it to someone, and they get hurt, your modifications could come back to bite you in the butt.
So far, I’ve only known one person who purchased an ST that was modified to make it better etc.
Some fool capped the PCV and did a lot of drilling, tapping, and adding non-OEM lines and parts to it.
And don’t think your “used, as is, with all its faults, “
Bill of sale will protect you from a lawsuit etc.
This guy was hurt in an accident, it was deemed brake related, and it’s been tied up in court for a couple years now.
Even if the guy who modified it is not found liable, it’s going to cost him a stupid amount of money to reach that verdict etc.
Just something else to consider.

 

[Nick 1200]

Modified brake systems, are a solution to a problem That only existed to folks who didn’t know how to properly and or correctly work on their bikes.
If you plan on keeping your bike forever, do what ever you want to with it, but if you ever sell it to someone, and they get hurt, your modifications could come back to bite you in the butt.
So far, I’ve only known one person who purchased an ST that was modified to make it better etc.
Some fool capped the PCV and did a lot of drilling, tapping, and adding non-OEM lines and parts to it.
And don’t think your “used, as is, with all its faults, “
Bill of sale will protect you from a lawsuit etc.
This guy was hurt in an accident, it was deemed brake related, and it’s been tied up in court for a couple years now.
Even if the guy who modified it is not found liable, it’s going to cost him a stupid amount of money to reach that verdict etc.
Just something else to consider.

Maybe matey just couldn’t ride a bike,see plenty of them about

 

[Igofar]

That may well be true, but lawyers love taking on cases like these .
Why risk dealing with a lawsuit that could force you into the poor house?
Much simpler learning how to just service the bike properly.

 

[TerryS]

I don't live in a litigious society but understand what Igofar is trying to say; you may open up a can of liability worms when you deviate from OEM.

I've done the dreaded thing and delinked the brakes on my previous VFR800, but that had little to do with the braking performance (they worked fine), I just had a fettling bug and decided that I wanted to upgrade the forks. That lead to changing the fork bottoms and hence losing the 3-piston callipers and the SMC. I installed a matching set of front master and callipers from a CBR954, and retained the 3-piston rear calliper but fitted a smaller diameter MC to maintain a decent hydraulic ratio. There was maths involved, and the outcome was very satisfying (as somone who has always used hand and foot braking together). On my current VFR800 and my current ST1300, I have no such desire to make any changes and much prefer to keep the standard braking system in good repair with decent pads, free moving pistons and slide pins, and regular fluid flushing. It is very good.

Having said that and purely as a thought exercise, I did the maths assuming you activate all 6 pistons in the front by hand, and all 3 pistons in the rear by foot. Turns out the hydraulic ratios are completely unchanged from stock so both brakes should feel perfectly normal, except separated. You would need to interconnect the fluid at the callipers so that all three pistons are exposed to the same hydraulic line pressure. I did that on my VFR by connecting the rear brake line that normally went to the PCV directly to the rear master which left the rear calliper/hose connection looking completely stock. At the front you would need to add a small connection line at the two banjo bolts, or possibly drill the calliper internally to open up an internal connection. I don't know how one would deal with the SMC but suppose you could fit a short length of steel bar internally to stop the piston moving in the bore.

If all you do is delete the front-rear interconnections you will end up operating just 4 front pistons by hand and a single piston at the back and the hydraulic ratio then is awful, with the master cylinders being well-oversized, leading to very "wooden" feeling brakes with much less grabbing power and little lever travel.

 

[sirbike]

.
@Nick 1200, I am not recommending delinking, however, if that is what you are going to do, look up how Blackbird owners do it.
Essentially the front mc pushes the 4 pistons as usual, the front middle pistons are onnected. The rear mc pushes all 3 rear pistons. At your own risk of death or worse of course.

I have been through all of this. Many miles delinked.
I successfully overhauled an SMC. There is an element of luck with overhauling regardless of mechanical ability.
Initially I delinked for simplicity but by the next bike got comfortable with understanding the system.
I prefer the linked performance.
My recommendation is buy a new SMC. If you somehow could afford to buy your bike, it’s worth a few more dollars to get a new SMC and be done with that. Flush once a year instead of every two years. It’s a good trade for the advantages offered by the linked brake system.

 

[mello dude]

TerryS and I are VFR800 owners and have traded many barbs on the VFR forums. Terry's note above starts the process to figure out what is acceptable via calculations. Both of us have done the deed on our VFR's. It's a major deal to do it right....I don't own an ST (yet), but it would be a simular job as the VFRs....forks/rotors/calipers/mc and different mc for the rear, with using the 3 rear pistons.

 

[TerryS]

TerryS and I are VFR800 owners and have traded many barbs on the VFR forums. Terry's note above starts the process to figure out what is acceptable via calculations. Both of us have done the deed on our VFR's. It's a major deal to do it right....I don't own an ST (yet), but it would be a simular job as the VFRs....forks/rotors/calipers/mc and different mc for the rear, with using the 3 rear pistons.

By accident or by design, the rear master currently operates one rear and two front pistons; if you de-link correctly, the rear master would operate the same number of pistons, just all in the rear calliper, so the hydraulic ratio is unchanged from stock. That's different to the VFR which drops from 4 pistons as stock to just 3 in the rear, which did need a smaller MC to compensate.

 

[dwalby]

interesting legal question for those of us in lawsuit-crazy USA.

There's no DOT or state-mandated laws regarding linked or even ABS-equipped brakes on bikes AFAIK. It would seem that any bike with a braking system that is operational on both wheels would be considered to be road worthy by the authorities, since there's nothing governing its implementation details. It would be prudent to get a signed waiver from the buyer stating that they understand the original factory setup had linked brakes, but that part of the system has been removed. Still not sure I'd be willing to risk a lawsuit on this myself though.

 

[Kevcules]

yes it’s a very good system when working ok,but seem very over complicated,I would be happy enough not to have it,but then I come from a much easier moto guzzi or Bmw r100 brakes,I’ve been through it and yes smc had some stringy black stuff in it,kinda looked like silicon sealer/rtv cleaned that out brakes now come off just need to bleed it proper,just such a faff why put the PcV where it is and not behind the side panel or under the seat

I feel the same way about this overly complicated, but well working system when it does work properly and I've also complained about it before. Flushing brake fluid yearly to try and keep this system working well is a PITA. (especially when bending over is getting tough )
Normally, when buying a Honda anything, you can use their equipment for many years trouble free with very little maintenance as history has proven. This is what we're all used to.

I've rarely changed the brake fluid in any machine I've ever owned over the last 40 years unless a line needed to be changed and NEVER had any brake related issues. I keep my stuff longer than anyone I know. When mentioning to other bikers about the numerous ST items that need alot of TLC, they just give me the three headed look. lol

I will always do what is necessary to maintain my machines and if flushing this bikes brake and clutch system yearly is what it takes, it will get done.
I'm with Nick and others when we say its a very "needy" system. De linking wouldn't scare me a bit either. Maybe if we were on a racetrack, the linked system would earn it's necessary fluid changes. Somehow hundreds of other bikes don't need them and are still driven without worry.

Here's a question that I've wondered about....

Why does the ST's brake system seem to get contaminated so easily and need flushing so often? Why don't other bikes need this same TLC?

Take Care

 

[SMSW]

Why does the ST's brake system seem to get contaminated so easily and need flushing so often? Why don't other bikes need this same TLC?

I'd guess it's because of very small passages, a complex system with a lot of parts (places for things to go wrong) and DOT4 brake fluid which more readily absorbs moisture than DOT3.

 

[MidLife]

Why don't other bikes need this same TLC?

Take Care

The GLs from the same era used to need the same TLC.

They had the same SMC set up....and same rear locking issue.

But with far more of them on the road than STs, the NHTSA got involved and recalls were issued.

Honda Gold Wing GL1800 Brake Recall | Rider Magazine

According to American Honda, as of today its dealers have ceased selling Gold Wing GL1800 motorcycle models until they can be inspected for the

ridermagazine.com

Note that Honda states in the article that back then (2011) " So far only 26 cases of dragging brakes have been reported as a result of the defect, and no crashes or injuries ".

This is without counting commenter Willie Tuggle's story:

"my 2006 goldwing almost killed me. the rear tire came off the bike. i never got a notice from Honda about the master cylinder problem.the bike was totaled. it had less than 3000 miles.it was a 2006. i have permanent injuries. "

 

[Igofar]

I feel the same way about this overly complicated, but well working system when it does work properly and I've also complained about it before. Flushing brake fluid yearly to try and keep this system working well is a PITA. (especially when bending over is getting tough )
Normally, when buying a Honda anything, you can use their equipment for many years trouble free with very little maintenance as history has proven. This is what we're all used to.

I've rarely changed the brake fluid in any machine I've ever owned over the last 40 years unless a line needed to be changed and NEVER had any brake related issues. I keep my stuff longer than anyone I know. When mentioning to other bikers about the numerous ST items that need alot of TLC, they just give me the three headed look. lol

I will always do what is necessary to maintain my machines and if flushing this bikes brake and clutch system yearly is what it takes, it will get done.
I'm with Nick and others when we say its a very "needy" system. De linking wouldn't scare me a bit either. Maybe if we were on a racetrack, the linked system would earn it's necessary fluid changes. Somehow hundreds of other bikes don't need them and are still driven without worry.

Here's a question that I've wondered about....

Why does the ST's brake system seem to get contaminated so easily and need flushing so often? Why don't other bikes need this same TLC?

Take Care

They do, you, from your own admission, just neglect your vehicles and don’t service them properly.
I’m sure if you ever purchased, or looked at a service manual to any of your prior bikes, they all would of instructed you to do routine maintenance, which includes oil changes, coolant (if water cooled) and brake fluid replacement periodically or by the mileage.
Sounds like you just ride them into the ground and don’t take care of them as well as some folks do.
Luckily most Honda’s can handle this kind of abuse.
These bikes can be unbelievably reliable IF/WHEN folks simply maintain them correctly.
Most of the folks complaining about their brake also have either purchased a used bike that has been neglected and or sat long periods of time, or not serviced as indicated in the service manual.

 

[Chris09]

The Honda LBS in the two forms that I've encountered is as far as I'm concerned an engineering marvel; it's a system that keeps the ass end of the bike in the ass end even while you're braking while you're going about a hundred miles an hour; cresting a hill; not too many braking systems work like that; I've locked up both ends of bikes under these circumstances; as I'm sure many have, big difference is the ass end doesn't float, and doesn't come around the front end [of a bike that out weighs me by a few pounds]. If you've ever [really] riden dirt bike, you know that feeling. This engineering marvel has nothing to do with suspension or weight distribution; it has to do with the LBS; ABS or not, Honda nailed it.

 

[Upt' North]

The Honda LBS in the two forms that I've encountered is as far as I'm concerned an engineering marvel; it's a system that keeps the ass end of the bike in the ass end even while you're braking while you're going about a hundred miles an hour; cresting a hill; not too many braking systems work like that; I've locked up both ends of bikes under these circumstances; as I'm sure many have, big difference is the ass end doesn't float, and doesn't come around the front end [of a bike that out weighs me by a few pounds]. If you've ever [really] riden dirt bike, you know that feeling. This engineering marvel has nothing to do with suspension or weight distribution; it has to do with the LBS; ABS or not, Honda nailed it.

Chris. Your comments are interesting. Like yourself I have ridden modern and not so modern CBS/LBS and ABS motorcycles. It is certainly an engineers answer to operate the braking system in a way the manufacturer considered safer. It is afterall how advanced motorcycle training would ensure you braked in an efficient and safe manner on all bikes not just linked ABS systems. This training would allow you to do manually what the LBS does for you. Although one issue with LBS is that many riders would struggle to tell you what the system is actually doing when you touch either lever, just like car most drivers, they just jump on and go.
In this the LBS assisted badly trained riders to ride with an added level of security but not above and beyond what could be done manually by an experienced, informed and trained rider.
I have also ridden thousands of miles off road, that is genuine off road and not just gravel tracks. In these off road situations the last thing I would want on a bike is LBS.
ABS is a different animal and without doubt is one of the greatest advances in vehicle safety since the inertia reel seat belt. Although again many riders and drivers do not understand how best to operate the brakes with such systems fitted and fail to take full advantage of the advances in technology.
Is LBS an engineering marvel? Well yes, someone in Japan spent a lot of time scratching their head to arrive at this solution, does it do anything that can't be replicated manually by a competent rider? I'm not convinced it does. ABS in comparison does something I definitely can't do because my brain doesn't work in milliseconds. Nor can I always spot road conditions that demand a different braking approach and the ABS will just deal with it. The modern cornering ABS systems are truly amazing.
Does CBS actually make baking systems any safer when you have ABS? It would seem most modern day motorcycle manufacturers think not. In an emergency braking situation you can only increase retardation up to the point that the wheels lock, at this point the ABS takes over at speeds over 6 mph.
Does CBS allow the untrained and inexperienced rider replicate the actions of a trained and experienced rider, maybe on some occasions it will. But it will not by its very nature allow the rider decide what best to do in all braking situations.
As an aside the SMC in engineering terms is an ancient answer to a problem now better addressed by other more modern technology. Honda never imagined that someone would be trying to keep these relatively complex systems running 20+ years after their fitment. This will lead to many abandoning the LBS, many bikes are now non ABS/LBS when they started off being fitted with this from new. If it wasn't for the likes of Larry and John many of the ST13's would be permanently on the work bench with owners scratching their heads in bewilderment about what was going on.
Just my views FWIW.
Upt.

 

[SMSW]

In this the LBS assisted badly trained riders to ride with an added level of security but not above and beyond what could be done manually by an experienced, informed and trained rider.

I disagree with some of your points, Ray. First, not everyone has the manual dexterity and reflexes to be able to brake as well as a properly designed LBS regardless of how many hours they are trained or how many hours they practice. And few humans will react optimally 100% of the time. Our mind will wander, concentration fades, and even the experts crash. LBS, ABS, seat belts, etc. allow many many more regular folks to get on a bike and ride. Do our skills fade as we get older? No question there.

does it do anything that can't be replicated manually by a competent rider? I'm not convinced it does.

You are right here, but it does function 100% of the time reliably, people do not.

Honda never imagined that someone would be trying to keep these relatively complex systems running 20+ years after their fitment.

If we believe that Honda (and other mfrs) imagined all of their products would cease to exist a few moments after they shut off the parts pipeline then virtually every car and bike on the road more than a few years old would have been relegated to museums. Since Honda still supplies replacement SMCs, we have to assume they have faith their products will endure. The SMC system, after all was still included on ST's as late as the last few P bikes - Honda never abandoned it. Maybe this component simply demands regular maintenance.

 

[Upt' North]

I disagree with some of your points, Ray. First, not everyone has the manual dexterity and reflexes to be able to brake as well as a properly designed LBS regardless of how many hours they are trained or how many hours they practice. And few humans will react optimally 100% of the time. Our mind will wander, concentration fades, and even the experts crash. LBS, ABS, seat belts, etc. allow many many more regular folks to get on a bike and ride. Do our skills fade as we get older? No question there.
You are right here, but it does function 100% of the time reliably, people do not.
If we believe that Honda (and other mfrs) imagined all of their products would cease to exist a few moments after they shut off the parts pipeline then virtually every car and bike on the road more than a few years old would have been relegated to museums. Since Honda still supplies replacement SMCs, we have to assume they have faith their products will endure. The SMC system, after all was still included on ST's as late as the last few P bikes - Honda never abandoned it. Maybe this component simply demands regular maintenance.

And that's the problem....well two actually.
Honda will typically make new parts for discontinued products for around ten years. So production will diminish or stop fairly soon. If I was thinking of running a 13 into the next few years I would make sure there was a SMC on the shelf.
Secondly and probably more importantly how can we show the SMC works 100% of the time, from the amount of disgruntled 13 owners I think we can safely say they don't. Does this mean they do not provide 100% of their benefit has they begin to fail, I don't know?
When it comes to whether we concentrate or not I would suggest we can train ourselves sufficiently on every ride to brake in certain ways so that it becomes the norm. Therefore concentration for braking is no more than it is for steering or accelerating and Honda don't assist us with those. If we can twist the throttle and wiggle the bars why can't we modulate two levers?
This discussion will grow over the next few years as and when the braking systems age and I suspect there will be far more removals than repairs. But time will tell.
Upt.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

Honda never imagined that someone would be trying to keep these relatively complex systems running 20+ years after their fitment.

Based on how robust and over-built every part of the ST (both the 11 and the 13) is, I don't get the impression that Honda had a short life-span intended for this design.
It seems like they were built for longevity.

 

[dwalby]

Based on how robust and over-built every part of the ST (both the 11 and the 13) is, I don't get the impression that Honda had a short life-span intended for this design.
It seems like they were built for longevity.

except for the ST1300 odometer, which only has the ability to display a '1' in the most significant digit.