28A Charge Fail, Melty Surroundings re 1 Alt Input to VRR

[HelmetHead]

I just noticed that the yellow wires coming up from the alternator are 12-gauge, while the yellows from red 3P to VRR are 14 gauge...

I'm going to use 12 gauge to replace the entire length of the right-side yellows during the 3P removal task, i.e., all the way from the 3P-replacing splices to the new spades at VRR, unless somebody advises me otherwise...

OnEdit:

WRONG--14-gauge coming up from alternator, not confirmed multiple observers say yellows to 6P are smaller, hence likely 16-gauge...

Still, I'm just changing from earlier statement re using all 12-gauge replacement, to 14-gauge all the way from excised 3P to VRR.

 

[HelmetHead]

I thought that given the heat issues naturally accompanying VRRs, I should use the same kind of copper or brass spades as used on the OEM wiring. Seems to be the omnipresent tin spade connectors are kinda "counter-indicated."

But at Home Depot, Ace Hardware, Napa, and Fry's Electronics, I find nothing but tin. Oreilly has a small selection of gold-plated, but even gold seems wrong for such a warm placing. Any suggestions or advice, please?

 

[Doodaa]

I just noticed that the yellow wires coming up from the alternator are 12-gauge, while the yellows from red 3P to VRR are 14 gauge...

I'm going to use 12 gauge to replace the entire length of the right-side yellows during the 3P removal task, i.e., all the way from the 3P-replacing splices to the new spades at VRR, unless somebody advises me otherwise...

Can't go wrong with using the heavier gauge wire for replacement.
FWIW, the alternator output is three phase, one on each yellow wire, which would (by design) require that all three be in good electrical condition before the desired output (voltage AND amperage) could be available to be regulated.

 

[HelmetHead]

Haven't got the 3P removed and replaced by splicing (w/butt connectors) yet, but I think I see why the yellows from 28A to 3P are 12 gauge, but 14 gauge from 3P to 6P.

The female disconnectors, as the packaging calls them (what we frequently call around here "female spades") terminating the wiring in the 6P can only be 16-14 gauge-wire connectors, because the VRR pins are too close to the walls and each other to permit used of 12-10 gauge connectors.

I've decided to use 12-gauge wire for replacement anyway, and just strip the insulation back an extra bit, after which I can readily get all strands of the 12 gauge into the crimping area on the 16-14 connectors required in that tight space.

The space is as tight as it is even without using the 6P, just plugging straight into the bottom of the VRR.

For the big pin (red/white wire), I found a 3/8" tin spade at a Napa auto parts store. Bought gold-plated 1/4" disconnectors for the others. I suspect the original pins and disconnectors were all metric, using 6.25mm on five pins, and 9.5mm on the big one.

 

[ST1100Y]

If those spade terminals got hot enough to discolor, they HAVE to be replaced. Even cleaned, they'll create too much resistance from bein 'annealed'

I concur, you'll actually have to shorten the wires way further till you find not discoloured, blanc copper strands to establish a reliable low resistance connection... the crimp (or any) connection point on discoloured thus corroded strands will heat up and burn again very soon...
(Just hat to cut +1ft of the headlight feed in the darn Traffic/Vivaro/Primastar panel van over melting H4 bulb connectors due to rotting wiring... them strands act like a wick in drawing water/humidity in, causing mentioned corrosion... stupid cheap-o electrics made by Valero Italy... )

 

[HelmetHead]

Herr Vienna,

I concur, you'll actually have to shorten the wires way further till you find not discoloured, blanc copper strands to establish a reliable low resistance connection... the crimp (or any) connection point on discoloured thus corroded strands will heat up and burn again very soon...

My repair/maintenance plan includes excising the red 3P, butt-splicing at that point with new wire from there to the VRR, and replacing all wiring harness spades connecting to the VRR pins, though without the now destroyed white 6P.

All that's good, but as you may have heard in threads like this, there is, at least in USA, a problem finding the right spade for the VRR's big pin, where the red/white wire goes. It seems nobody can find a female spade for the red/white pin.

The other five pins, 3 yellow, a black and a white all fit a one-quarter inch/6.25mm (some manufacturers saying 6.35mm).

To replace the big red/white spade, I can purchase no better than a three-eights inch/9.5mm spade.

Today, I eye-measured the difference between the OEM red/white's spade, and this 9.5mm replacement. While the quarter-inch/6.25mm spades look great for yellows, black and white, the purchased three-eights inch/9.5mm seems clearly more than 50% larger than the red/white original. That is, the OEM female spade for the red/white wire's pin is considerably smaller than the 9.5mm that seems all we can buy.

My eyes tell me the red/white female spade probably should be about 8.00 - 8.25mm. Does the European market have female spades about that size?

 

[ST1100Y]

All that's good, but as you may have heard in threads like this, there is, at least in USA, a problem finding the right spade for the VRR's big pin, where the red/white wire goes. It seems nobody can find a female spade for the red/white pin.

The "standard" blade terminals/crimps are 6,3mm, the larger one in question should be a 9,5mm (IIRC as on H4 bulb prongs), but I'd need to take measures myself first to confirm 100%....
They can be obtained with/out latch to attach in mouldings/connector shells.
Some overview:
http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/VWP-onlinestore/terminalsnonins/noninsblades.php
Alternative (only for testing, as I don't trust that crimping type much when it comes to high current/primary systems):
http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/VWP-onlinestore/terminalspreins/preinsterms.php

However, I don't have a VRR nor an ST1100's wiring harness here at my desk to check directly, would need to take my '94 apart to measure there.

 

[HelmetHead]

The "standard" blade terminals/crimps are 6,3mm, the larger one in question should be a 9,5mm (IIRC as on H4 bulb prongs), but I'd need to take measures myself first to confirm 100%....
They can be obtained with/out latch to attach in mouldings/connector shells.
Some overview:
http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.e...ninsblades.php
Alternative (only for testing, as I don't trust that crimping type much when it comes to high current/primary systems):
http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.e...reinsterms.php

Well, those are interesting links, to me, because they include female spades of 7.7mm, 8.0mm, and 8.3mm. I don't have millimeter measuring device small enough to get next to the big pin in the VRR...but, I swear, by visual inspection, the VRR's large pin (which will certainly take a 9.5mm) is almost undoubtedly the 8.3mm on OEM wiring harness.

 

[HelmetHead]

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Hope folks don’t mind my mini-quotes (the word ‘the’) from all other commenters on this thread, but I did something bad, and I wanted to get the system to put a quotation notification in everybody’s sign-on, in hopes of getting maximum attention…cuz it looks like I done real bad.

I made my re-spaded wires, with butt splices crimped to one end, to run from where the 3P used to be, over to the VRR (not using old 6P). I crimped the butt splicers onto the cleaned back OEM yellows coming up from the 28A.

I unbolted the VRR, to make it easier to put all the spades back onto their VRR pins. My understanding is that any 28A input to the VRR can go on any of the three appropriate pins.

My battery was installed at the time. My battery has a ~3.5” extension on the positive terminal, for ease of battery tender use.

As I was pushing the female spaded ends of the new wires onto the VRR pins, the ring terminal of the 28A ground wire (green, normally held down by VRR mounting bolt) touched the positive terminal’s extension.

Spark! 1.25” long, .25” wide, very bright, ground wire immediately hot as hell, slight odor of satanic presence…

I unhitched the positive terminal, finished plugging in new wires, remounted VRR, green ground wire firmly bolted into position.

Turned ignition on at key; dashboard indicator lights came on strong, etc., but when I hit the start button, I got single ‘click’ sound, then nothing. Did that once or twice, after which my dash lights all went out. Standing there wondering, the dash lights slowly came back. Repeated another time or two, last time dash lights never came back.

So: kinda like a really dead battery, though it was brand new, checked out on load test at store, overnight trickle charge had it showing 12.8x volts right before the above start failures. As it was already completely dark in driveway workshop, I packed up for the day.

So, did I:
Discharge the entire battery, backwards through the ground to the alternator? Did I finally destroy my alternator for sure? Did I destroy my new VRR? Or do I just need to start looking at my starter relay switch…?

True, I may be irretrievably stupid, but, hey, then I’m just the kind of guy morality most persuasively dictates you could help…

 

[Bush]

Since the green wire is a direct connection to ground and not attached to the VRR at the time, I doubt the VRR was involved, or the alternator. I think you have caused a short in one or more cells of the battery and your battery is now toast. Have it tested to find out.

 

[Doodaa]

+1 on above, have the battery tested. If not defective (which I doubt), you'll need to do a leakage test on the electrical wiring (overtaxed melting "somewhere"). The "lesser of the evils" is that you toasted the new battery, which should still be under warranty replacement. Needless to say, you'll be leaving it disconnected until you complete the wiring repairs.
Pardon the comment, but this is NOT the way to make fireworks for the 4th~!

P.S. Please keep us posted on your progress.

 

[HelmetHead]

Swapped in a good, used battery, and the machine started right up, but...

Even with 3P eliminated and new VRR, my battery post voltage with engine warmed up is still 12.2...so, no progress at all.

The only thing I have yet to do is put a new spade on the red/white wire. The old one is clearly annealed; original color was seemingly a yellowy-bright brass, but there is a sheen of almost light pink over much of the the back of the spade. The reason I haven't yet replaced that spade is that all I've found is a 3/8" (9.5mm) tin one, and I've continued to look for 8 or 8.3mm that the OEM is. Also, the original spade is solid, whereas the tin one has two slightly flaring cuts across the back, presumably for cooling, so besides being too big, there isn't as much metal to metal contact between spade and pin.

That said, there seems not much left to try. I'm going to wait a couple days till the weather cools off, but then I'll put on the tin spade, and test again. If still no improvement, I'll probably run the dynamic AC test again, checking voltage at the new yellow wire spades, though I'm not sure why, since the thing looked great on the first dynamic AC test, which was done at the 28A side of the old 3P (which had such stiff wires running into it I had to cut off about 1" of each of the yellows when eliminating the 3P).

 

[John OoSTerhuis]

Why wait? Do the dynamic AC test now with a warmed up engine (and stator windings).

 

[HelmetHead]

Why wait? Do the dynamic AC test now with a warmed up engine (and stator windings).

At this point, it's been about 2hrs since I powered down, and it's just too hot to work out there; humidity's way up, and sweat covers my glasses instantly, etc., so I'm just waiting out the weather.

I'm very interested, John, in any commentary you might have about me going ahead and using the 3/8" (9.5mm) tin spade to replace the annealed OEM. Measurement still doesn't feel quite perfect, but I'm almost positive the red/white wire's OEM spade is 8.3mm, but I've only seen 8.3mm spades in a link from ST1100Y (above in this thread), but I'm not inclined to do the international ordering required, what with money change issues and waiting another week or two, etc. The 3/8" tin doesn't seem to me to provide as much metal on metal as the OEM; am I likely to create resistance at that big pin?

You mentioned once you'd probably dremel the pin down to take the common 1/4" spade; if using the 3/8" tin spade is likely to cause problems, I reckon I can go out an buy a dremel, but space around the pin is pretty tight. What dremel ending would you use? I've seen the ones that are kind of cone-shaped, that have some gritty material on them...

 

[John OoSTerhuis]

I don't think that low voltage reading is caused by the size of the connector as long as it's gripping the spade tightly. Run the bike until it is warmed up and if you still have the low readings even at increased rpm--
Shut off the engine and pull the three yellow leads off the VRR and do the continuity-to-ground checks. If no continuity--
Stick a probe through the yellows' sheath as close to the stator as possible and check for excessive resistance between there and the VRR connector. If none found--
Start the engine and do the AC check between pairs of yellow leads.

As to a rotary tool mod of the spade, there are many bits you can buy for them. I'd use a small grinding stone bit and finish/dress-up with a small hand file.

John

 

[HelmetHead]

Thanks for the feedback, John. I think I'll get a Dremel when I get back on this project. Right now I'm at the airport, heading out of town on family emergency. Hopefully back in less than a week.