Another kind of ST (Super Touring)

[rjs987]

Some of you have noticed I put my 2013 Suzuki Burgman 650 up for sale. (@Darth rider )
A few seem to be curious and have asked so here's the scoop.
As many have known for the last several years I tend to favor the Super Scooter type of ride. My reasons are that they are a lot more fun for me to ride. No shifting (the same reason many here are drifting to DCT). And good super scooters can have the same performance, in many ways (at least in ways that are important to me), as a standard motorcycle of a larger engine size. My Burgman could waste no time getting up to 90+ mph. I really have no interest in going faster than that. I don't need THOSE kinds of performance awards.

In the USA there have really not been much to choose from that interests me in the last few years. I have no interest in anything smaller than 500 cc at this time. Yet I do still look at all classes of bikes. You never know. 2018 was the last year for the Burgman 650 anywhere. That year, and since, the Yamaha TMax is still being made but not shipped over to this country. 2020 (I think) the BMW C650 GT was no longer made. So I was content with what I have and expected to remain so for many years to come. Until this year. A new ride showed up on our shores at the end of 2020 that is slightly smaller than my Burgman, slightly faster, more nimble and aggressive, and about 130 lbs lighter. It has real keyless ignition. IOW no key but only a remote fob. They've been available in most other countries since end of 2017 but 2021 is the first year in the USA.

You could say it is MY new ST.

I don't have it yet but have sat on one just recently. At the "advice" of SWMBO I have to sell my Burgman first. They are hard to find in this country mostly due to distribution problems from Covid-19. I hear there is a whole boat load of them (literally) in shipping containers on the west coast.

In this post I'm giving just a teaser photo.


More to come soon.

 

[Dale_I]

That be the Kymco AK 550?

 

[dduelin]

That be the Kymco AK 550?

Bingo

 

[ddemair]

Some of you have noticed I put my 2013 Suzuki Burgman 650 up for sale. (@Darth rider )
A few seem to be curious and have asked so here's the scoop.
As many have known for the last several years I tend to favor the Super Scooter type of ride. My reasons are that they are a lot more fun for me to ride. No shifting (the same reason many here are drifting to DCT). And good super scooters can have the same performance, in many ways (at least in ways that are important to me), as a standard motorcycle of a larger engine size. My Burgman could waste no time getting up to 90+ mph. I really have no interest in going faster than that. I don't need THOSE kinds of performance awards.

In the USA there have really not been much to choose from that interests me in the last few years. I have no interest in anything smaller than 500 cc at this time. Yet I do still look at all classes of bikes. You never know. 2018 was the last year for the Burgman 650 anywhere. That year, and since, the Yamaha TMax is still being made but not shipped over to this country. 2020 (I think) the BMW C650 GT was no longer made. So I was content with what I have and expected to remain so for many years to come. Until this year. A new ride showed up on our shores at the end of 2020 that is slightly smaller than my Burgman, slightly faster, more nimble and aggressive, and about 130 lbs lighter. It has real keyless ignition. IOW no key but only a remote fob. They've been available in most other countries since end of 2017 but 2021 is the first year in the USA.

You could say it is MY new ST.

I don't have it yet but have sat on one just recently. At the "advice" of SWMBO I have to sell my Burgman first. They are hard to find in this country mostly due to distribution problems from Covid-19. I hear there is a whole boat load of them (literally) in shipping containers on the west coast.

In this post I'm giving just a teaser photo.


More to come soon.

I'm looking forward to a review of this bike (assuming you can get it).

There's just something about smaller bikes, even scooters, that puts a smile on my face.

 

[rjs987]

Well, here is a half review.
Finally got to personally see and touch one of these elusive AK 550 scooters. Actually two of them, both 2021 models, one in each color.
Just some initial impressions minus a test ride.

Had a very nice visit yesterday with the owner/manager of First Turn motorcycle dealer in Scott, LA just outside of Lafayette (visiting with my son and family). Bill Young does like to talk and walked me through what he knew about the AK and I also mentioned a few things he didn't know but I knew from my own research.

This Maxi Scooter is a true 550 being 550.4 cc. The 2022 models are already showing up at some dealers. Most are the same Matt Silver Crystal or Space Gray, but also for 2022 is a Deep Blue or Matt Black. Since 2021 is the first year in the USA there really is no used market... yet. I found one nationwide so far that I may be able to test ride in Fort Smith next week. It's a Matt Silver Crystal color.

I put each up on the center stand and could easily tell they are a lot lighter than my Burgman. They practically jumped up onto the center stand and the first time I ended up with the AK sliding back along the floor from the momentum when I popped it up. Keep in mind I come from learning center stand technique when I owned a 1990 GL1500 Gold Wing. That heavy beast became relatively easy after much practice so anything that came after it is like nothing to pop up on the center stand. I also put up both side and center stand and pushed the AK around the floor a bit. It was definitely easier to maneuver around.

LOTS of raining happening about this time around Lafayette so no test ride was happening. This dealer didn't yet have an AK ready for demo so he didn't want to allow test rides anyway. I wasn't prepared to test ride, didn't have my gear with me, so no big deal to me this time. I did sit on both of them while up on the center stand and also when off the stands. I could tell the seat was just a little bit taller than my Burgman 650 with Corbin seat but not really much. I actually had to think about it before I really noticed. That may be more due to my Corbin seat being different than the stock Burgman seat. I did notice that my reach to the floor was just a bit farther on the AK than it is on my Burgman. Depending on how I sat on the seat and if I scooted up a little toward the nose I could still flat foot on both feet but if I sat back in seat as I would while riding I could only flat foot one side but still have most of my other foot solidly on the floor (heel was only up a very little). But with feet on the foot boards was where I felt more room. I really wanted to see how the AK "fits" me. How much leg and knee room there was. I adjusted the bum stop all the way back and found that with my feet on the level part of the foot board there was no less room than on my Burgman, possibly even a little more. I really didn't feel my knees were bent as much on the AK 550 as I normally bend them on my Burgman, less in fact! The few times I put my feet on the flat level part of the foot boards of my Burgman I have felt my knees were sticking up almost like I was sitting on a chair that was just a little short for me. Not so on the AK! And there was more than enough room between my knees and the closest part of the front fairing/dash. There was plenty of room also with my feet up on the slanted forward part of the foot board. I was thinking at first that there was just a little more reach and I could straighten my legs a bit more on my Burgman but then I realized I was scooted up on the seat and I had some space behind me to scoot back some more. I really could stretch my legs almost as much as on my Burgman. It was hard to tell much difference to me. I also noted how my arms reached to the grips and that was almost exactly the same as on my Burgman IMO. I'm 5 ft 9 in tall (175 cm) and have a 32 inch inseam (81 cm). These details were what I was most wanting to find out about the AK 550.

Out of curiosity I mentioned about the long range of the fob and Bill (owner) helped me test that theory to see just what the range was with a new fob with a fresh battery. Now, I know that once the AK is turned on the fob is not needed to start the bike, lock the steering, open the seat or fuel door. But the issue comes in with the AK turned off and the fob IS needed to turn it on. So he took the fob and backed away about 15 ft at first. No problem turning on the AK. He doubled that distance a few times and finally got to a place about 60 ft away and the AK would not sense the fob and would not turn on. We found out that the straight line distance with nothing between but air was between 45-50 ft and the AK would then turn on. I know that is the distance since the floor has 12 inch tiles and I counted them (Bill was straight out along a line of tiles so it was an easy count). And THAT is the only concern I have and why I would feel much more comfortable tent camping with that fob in a Faraday pouch. As was said on another forum that once the AK is turned on you can open the seat and fuel door and start the engine, all without the fob. I also did some learning about that control knob. Found out that you CAN open the seat while the engine is running but cannot open the seat or(correction) fuel door while the engine is running. Sorry to those who just think they HAVE to be able to fuel up the tank with the engine running. It's a safety measure that I agree with and have no issues with. The reason that you can't is that to open the fuel door you have to turn the control past the engine shutoff position, thus killing the engine, to get to the fuel door position. For the seat the on button at the bottom center of the control knob doesn't do anything unless it is pointing to one of the two engine shutoff positions(correction). Also, you have to turn the control knob past engine shutoff to lock the handlebars. If the bike is still turned on while the knob is at the steering lock you can turn it to the next position to the left to open the seat. So that can be done while the steering lock is enabled. All this can be done with the AK turned on. When the AK is turned off (control knob and engine and dash all turned off). The knob just spins free and you cannot operate any of the settings like steering lock on/off, seat open, fuel door open, engine start, etc. All in all I thought all that was well thought out other than the range of that fob.

Only the Space Gray AK was prepped with the battery installed so that was the one I turned on. Bill even started it and let me hear the exhaust sound for a little while even inside the showroom. I really like how it sounds with the stock setup.

These come stock with heated grips and ABS. Brembo brakes and Bosch ABS system. They have upside down front forks and a belt final drive. The AK 550 is rated very highly in every country where they've been out for the last 4 years.

Now I want one more than before. Can't wait until I can test ride one next week. That would seal my decision. But alas, I still need to sell my Burgman 650. Anyone want to buy it? I have it posted in the for sale section.

Here's a few photos of my visit today. In these photos I am not solidly back into the bum bumper and could push back about another inch+ even if it doesn't look like it. The first 3 photos are of the Space Gray and the last photo is the Matt Silver Crystal. I may have to learn how to clean and take care of a Matt paint treatment.

 

[drtyrrel]

My wife had a Kymco Downtown 300. It was very well made and went like hell for a 300. I bet that one flies.

 

[rjs987]

I've read reports of 0-60 mph times at 5.5 sec. Not too bad.
Of course I'm not one to burn rubber away from a stop light but still that's nice to have.

 

[Fawlty]

Nice write up Bob! I am not a fan of keyless on 2 wheels or 4. Much prefer an old fashioned key. The AK550 is a popular ride in Spain. You can pick up a year old low mileage one for around the €7000 mark. Good luck with selling the Burgman, you shouldn't have too much problem.

 

[Daboo]

I had a Kymco 250 Bet&Win for a year. I liked it a lot.

Personal taste...I'd take the silver paint job. The other reminds me of the Battleship Grey the Navy paints their vehicles.

Chris

 

[ST Gui]

On average are this mid-size scooter-cycles CVT? Are none of them manual shift? Asking for a friend...

 

[rjs987]

This size, or any size scooter over 400 cc, is considered a "Maxi Scooter". I prefer the term Super Scooter since there's just something about that word "maxi" that I'm not comfortable with. My wife would be though. (Mid-size would be 150-400 cc and small is, well, smaller).

I don't know of any Super Scooter that has manual shift. Most scooters of any size from my wife's Metropolitan 50cc up to the Gilera 800 (839cc) have a CVT. And that means no manual shifting. My Burgman 650 is the only one I know of that has an eCVT which is electronically controlled with an electric motor and gears rather than mechanically controlled with sliders to control the pulley ratios. This allows the Burgman to have simulated manual shifting with buttons at the left grip. I never use that feature though since it's just too easy to let it run in automatic. There may be other scooters like mine but I don't know of any.

This is all very similar to DCT bikes. Except that with DCT there is usually a manual shift option available, and with CVT there is usually not. With DCT either the bike is shifting for you or you are shifting for the bike, but either way the dual clutches are handled automatically, alternating odd or even numbered gears. With CVT the clutch is always engaged after a certain threshold RPM is reached. Usually that is around 1800-2200 RPM. And it releases around 1500 RPM. Those figures may vary depending on the bike with CVT.

DCT is actually fixed gears that are selected based on a range of RPM desired for a given load. CVT is continuously varied pulley ratios with optimum power output constantly selected for any given load.

 

[dduelin]

This size, or any size scooter over 400 cc, is considered a "Maxi Scooter". I prefer the term Super Scooter since there's just something about that word "maxi" that I'm not comfortable with. My wife would be though. (Mid-size would be 150-400 cc and small is, well, smaller).

I don't know of any Super Scooter that has manual shift. Most scooters of any size from my wife's Metropolitan 50cc up to the Gilera 800 (839cc) have a CVT. And that means no manual shifting. My Burgman 650 is the only one I know of that has an eCVT which is electronically controlled with an electric motor and gears rather than mechanically controlled with sliders to control the pulley ratios. This allows the Burgman to have simulated manual shifting with buttons at the left grip. I never use that feature though since it's just too easy to let it run in automatic. There may be other scooters like mine but I don't know of any.

This is all very similar to DCT bikes. Except that with DCT there is usually a manual shift option available, and with CVT there is usually not. With DCT either the bike is shifting for you or you are shifting for the bike, but either way the dual clutches are handled automatically, alternating odd or even numbered gears. With CVT the clutch is always engaged after a certain threshold RPM is reached. Usually that is around 1800-2200 RPM. And it releases around 1500 RPM. Those figures may vary depending on the bike with CVT.

DCT is actually fixed gears that are selected based on a range of RPM desired for a given load. CVT is continuously varied pulley ratios with optimum power output constantly selected for any given load.

"This is all very similar to DCT bikes. Except that with DCT there is usually a manual shift option available, and with CVT there is usually not. With DCT either the bike is shifting for you or you are shifting for the bike, but either way the dual clutches are handled automatically, alternating odd or even numbered gears. With CVT the clutch is always engaged after a certain threshold RPM is reached. Usually that is around 1800-2200 RPM. And it releases around 1500 RPM. Those figures may vary depending on the bike with CVT.

DCT is actually fixed gears that are selected based on a range of RPM desired for a given load. CVT is continuously varied pulley ratios with optimum power output constantly selected for any given load."

This is too important to gloss over. CVT is not that similar to DCT, in architecture nor in the winding road ride experience. CVT transmissions have no direct mechanical link between the drive and driven pulley and typically have a "rubber band" feel between modes of power on acceleration and power off deceleration and do not have much engine braking. There is no sense or feel of direct drive or direct connection like a motorcycle's power delivery or engine braking is. A DCT has essentially the same manual transmission as a manual transmission bike with a pair of clutches instead of one and an electro/hydraulic mechanism to handle the clutches and select the gears instead of the rider's hand and foot. This sense or feel of a direct connection between the engine's throttle control and rear wheel is a very important part of riding a motorcycle. In cornering it's minute adjustments of throttle that adjust entry speed and radius of turn. and larger throttle adjustments that pick the bike up at apex and exit.

 

[rjs987]

Actually the earlier Burgman 650 (prior to 2013) had very significant engine braking. Much much more than a typical fixed gear transmission has. The CVT belt in these is steel and rubber (steel tied together with rubber) so much less "rubber band" feeling to it. The newer Burgman 650 (2013-2018) has much less engine braking... about like a fixed gear motorcycle when in manual mode, not so much when in Drive (or automatic) mode. But even then, the engine braking is there. I've been able to use that on my newer model to come almost to a stop without using the brakes. Both Burgman 650 models have electronic CVT which means the pulley ratios are not controlled by mechanics but by an electric motor that adjusts the driving pulley. The both have a manual mode with paddles or buttons to "lock" the CVT into a fixed ratio for a range of RPM so is very similar to a fixed gear transmission, even if not exactly the same. Many Burgman 650 riders go through tight twisty roads using only the manual mode.

Almost all other CVT bikes do not have this electronic CVT nor the simulated manual mode.

 

[dduelin]

Actually the earlier Burgman 650 (prior to 2013) had very significant engine braking. Much much more than a typical fixed gear transmission has. The CVT belt in these is steel and rubber (steel tied together with rubber) so much less "rubber band" feeling to it. The newer Burgman 650 (2013-2018) has much less engine braking... about like a fixed gear motorcycle when in manual mode, not so much when in Drive (or automatic) mode. But even then, the engine braking is there. I've been able to use that on my newer model to come almost to a stop without using the brakes. Both Burgman 650 models have electronic CVT which means the pulley ratios are not controlled by mechanics but by an electric motor that adjusts the driving pulley. The both have a manual mode with paddles or buttons to "lock" the CVT into a fixed ratio for a range of RPM so is very similar to a fixed gear transmission, even if not exactly the same. Many Burgman 650 riders go through tight twisty roads using only the manual mode.

Almost all other CVT bikes do not have this electronic CVT nor the simulated manual mode.

I'm sorry I was not more clear. I meant that the "rubber band" feeling is that when you open the throttle to accelerate the CVT's engine, rpms rapidly rise to somewhere around peak torque and the road speed mph rises at a rate that lags behind the rise in rpms, giving an elastic or rubber band feeling where the mph lags the rpms though eventually catching up. Conversely, upon closed throttle the engine speed drops out of direct proportion to road speed. The CVTs I've had were not electronically "geared" but I guess the Burgman is an outlier with the electronically controlled variator. My scooters have been conventional with centrifugal weight variators. I'm familiar with the difference in riding experience. I first read about it in technical papers Honda released with DCT some 10 years ago wherein they described in detail how DCT gives the traditional direct feel that motorcyclists prefer when compared to CVTs or hydrostatic drive trains that Honda had produced.

 

[rjs987]

With the 2 Burgmans and my wife's scooter I've learned to ignore any direct relationship between the engine RPM and road speed. And yet there is a relationship between the two, just not a direct one in automatic mode. The engine revs up to enable the CVT to provide the most efficient torque for the requested load at any ratio or speed. In that way I consider a CVT to be more efficient than a fixed gear transmission since the most efficient torque is always provided for the load. Whereas a fixed gear transmission is running comparably inefficiently at the lower RPM in the range for any given gear. Those have to rev up to get to more efficient max torque or HP whereas a CVT is closer to that most of the time. I've become accustomed to the very little bit of hesitation that happens from initial start up or from drastic acceleration and have learned to anticipate it and even utilize it. After that initial feeling of hesitation the CVT seems to provide a stronger surge throughout the range during "normal" running. While it may be satisfying to feel that direct result of twisting the throttle it still takes the drive train a bit of time to realize the full power potential of the selected fixed gear unless the engine RPM is maintained high. This is where the electronic CVT in the Burgman makes up for not being a true fixed gear transmission since it does essentially the same "locking in" of a "gear ratio" as a fixed gear transmission for any gear. One nice thing is that it is a 6 speed when in manual mode. At least this is what I've learned from my own experience with both.

 

[dduelin]

I've heard when the 650 Burgman breaks or wears out a particular something in the drive train it is essentially not worth fixing due to cost. What is that about?

 

[rjs987]

This is a reference to what happens when the CVT belt breaks. Actually it is VERY rare for the CVT belt to just break. I am estimating from reports I've read that the incidence of the issue is maybe less than 0.3% (about 45 units out of 15,000 for example), more likely much less since only those who actually have the issue report very vocally about it. The problem that happens is really not that the belt itself fails but there are a few nylon gears that the CVT motor turns and one of those sometimes breaks, as nylon gears tend to do. Sometimes the issue is not the gears but the drive bearing between the engine and CVT fails. When either of these happens the bits get onto the belt and as happens when anything fouls a tight belt, even with final drives on Harley's, the belt can break.

Looking at the frame and where the CVT is located in the frame it becomes clear that the engine/CVT has to be dropped out of the frame to remove the CVT from the engine and repair it. The CVT is itself dry so no oil to deal with. But getting it off the engine is where the expense comes in as well as the cost of the belt itself. The other parts that may be needed for a repair cost much less, but are not necessarily cheap either. Those who have had this issue with the CVT have reported that it costs between $2500 and $3500 depending what dealer charges are to do the work. Some owners I know of who have done this repair themselves find they can shave off the cost down to around $1500 or less just for parts. The belt is the more expensive item and can cost $460 on Suzuki Parts Nation, more if the Suzuki shop buys it.

Here is an image of a stripped down older model Burgman 650. Mine is essentially the same other than the muffler being a bit different. The CVT is circled in red and you can see how the top front of the CVT is blocked by the lower frame tube. There are 2 or 3 mounting bolts that are behind that frame tube and also the CVT, once unbolted, must be able to be pulled straight out from the side of the engine to remove it. That frame tube is in the way.


The CVT belt is considered by Suzuki as a lifetime of the scooter belt. When pressed for what that means (by another owner, not me) a Suzuki rep told them it should last around 70,000 miles. I've known owners who have gone way past that with no issues.

I really haven't worried about this issue on mine given how rare it is to happen. About 90-95 % where this issue has occurred is on older models, prior to 2009 and only one that I know of on newer models (2013-2018). And there is a small bolt that has the sole purpose of regulating the range of movement of the driving pulley that is sometimes called out as part of the issue. Changing this small bolt is sometimes seen as preventive measure, though not a guarantee. I'm not convince this bolt has anything to do with the problem but it doesn't hurt to swap it out once in a while since it is a wear part. As I said it happens so very rarely so not really much of a concern of happening other than the cost if it ever does. I've been aware of major issue on other bikes I've owned that are more likely to happen, just not so expensive to fix.

BTW- I was fully aware of this before I bought my Burgman 650. It is really not the reason I am selling it now, but may play into that decision a little. I'm just interested in something newer and it just so happens that the AK 550 CVT is much easier to work on being entirely open without any frame blocking access to it. The down side is the AK has a typical CVT with slider/roller weights and is not the eCVT that this Burgman has and as is typical with mechanical CVT units the belt does need to be replaced once in a while as part of normal maintenance.

 

[rjs987]

I WAS going to wait until I put it on the trailer to bring it home but the dealer sent me pics today.
It arrived yesterday (Monday) and they prepped it today so it is now ready for me to arrive Saturday to get it and bring it home. I'll post pics of it on the trailer when I have those.
I decided to trailer the bike home rather than ride it due to the time of year (cold temps and unpredictable weather) and also because I am trading in my Burgman 650 and didn't want to chance any damage or accident riding that down to get the new bike. Plus the trade in was based on current mileage so didn't want to add another 350 miles.

I had been looking at several dealers all over the MidWest and even down south to find what I wanted for a price I was willing to pay. I came across Moto Italia (Illinois Moto Guzzi Ural Kymco Scooter & Motorcycle Dealer Motorcycle Scooter repair)in Edwardsville, IL just outside of St Louis. They were actually closer than another dealer just outside Chicago which had a 2022 model in stock. But that Chicago dealer tacked on huge upcharges and didn't want to talk anything about trade in. Moto Italia showed they had one 2022 Matte Silver Crystal model so I emailed them to get the scoop on it. They said they were expecting that one any day and to call for details, so I did just last Thursday. I just happened to ask if they could get the Matte Deep Blue color I really wanted, and I said it just like that. They said they could have one there by the next week. They asked about a trade in and I told them about my Burgman and gave them some details they wanted to know. They then offered me a trade value that was more than anyone had yet offered me for a private sale price and also quoted me what was a lower than expected true OTD price. I thought about it overnight but knew exactly what I was going to say to them so the deal was struck on Friday.

Here are some pics of the new machine. I just love the color.

I will miss the Burgman 650 but I'll be enjoying this new AK 550.

 

[Steveguy]

Congrats on the new machine Bob!

 

[the Ferret]

Nice congrats. Reminds me a lot of my Majesty 400