Avon Storm vs Michelin Pilot Road 2 - ST1300 Specific

[Rob Hephner]

This is in regards to the fitment of these tires on the ST1300 ONLY, not a review of the overall performance of these tires.

There has been some discussion in the past about the fact that Avon does not list a fitment for the ST1300 or Pan European. While many of us have used the tire without issue, there have been some issues and as you read along and look, you may come to the same conclusion that I have.

I ride aggressively and due to the fact that I actively teach Total Control I use more of a tires usable traction range than most. That being said I am not looking to get to the limits of traction and I want the most possible traction available in all situations.


First the photos. (I have bad lighting today, I?ll replace the Michelin Photos when it gets better.)

Rear (Storms then Road 2?s)

Front (Storms then Road 2?s)

These are tires used in the same way on the same range and right off the bat I can tell you I had more traction at full lean with the Michelins versus the Storms.

You can see I have a good millimeter or two left that is virtually untouched, now for the reason.

Compound is a great way to get traction, but the first step is to have more rubber attached to the road.

During the mounting process for the Road 2?s is when things first came to light. My previous 3 sets of Storms took about 110 to 125 pounds of pressure to get the bead to set and with one rear it was rather difficult. The Road 2?s set with about 70 psi. Now that might not mean anything to most but it showed quickly that the Storms are made for a narrower rim than in mounted on the ST1300.

The issue that results when putting a tire designed for a narrow rim on a wider wheel is that is stretches the tire out and makes a sharper edge at the side, thus making the contact patch at lean less, how much depends upon the difference, but the pictures above speak volumes.

I?ll be tracking the wear of these tire obviously, but it looks right off the bat as if the reason tat Avon does not list a fitment for the ST1300 is because the tire simply doesn?t fit the wheel. If you are never near the edge of your bike I doubt this is a big issue and it honestly hasn?t been an issue for my riding at the edge, but it is useful to have knowledge, so I figured I?d pass the information along.

 

[970mike]

Nice report! Thank you! Keep us posted!

 

[tdeboeser]

Nice report Rob.

I haven't had the PR2's on yet, but I did have PR's before my Storms. By "seat of the pants" I like the Storms better. Do you think tire shape has anything to do with your conclusions?

Also, could this be a technology "leap frog" situation?

thanks,

Tom de

 

[John Anthony]

Rob,

Nice sleuthing. Thanks for adding more info to the discussion. Looking forward to your future posts.

John

 

[Mellow]

Thanks Rob, I've noticed some tires take more air than others to 'pop' and seat on the rim... I just never thought about noting which and at what psi... I'll see about checking the next ones I install.

 

[wjbertrand]

Interesting stuff Rob. I've got to say though I'm very surprised at the pressures you are using to seat the beads. I change all of my own tires and have always had the beads nicely pop before even reaching 42 PSI. I would be concerned that pressures in the range of 70 - 150 PSI would cause structural damage to the tire's carcass.
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[dduelin]

Rob,

I think you are starting with the false assumption that the different tires are identical in dimensions. If they are not and the profiles in cross section differ then your conclusion is flawed.

Did you measure the tires in tread width measured between uprights, width from shoulder to shoulder across the tire surface, and sidewall height?

 

[Rob Hephner]

I would be concerned that pressures in the range of 70 - 150 PSI would cause structural damage to the tire's carcass.
Posted via Mobile Device

The Michelins seated well before 70, rather quickly. The Storms took a bunch of pressure, thus my concern was they same as you have.

Rob,

I think you are starting with the false assumption that the different tires are identical in dimensions. If they are not and the profiles in cross section differ then your conclusion is flawed.

No such assumption. I started with the knowledge that Avon lists no fitment for this bike, the question was why. My assumption was that they indeed where different in dimension.

The answer (in part) is in fact that the tire is made for a wheel with a narrower rim width, that's a fact from the manufacturer directly. (Via direct e-mail communication.) The Michelin's do have a listed fitment for this bike, also a fact.

Yes, profile makes a difference and could play a part, but what I have initially observed is what I have referenced and what I have commented upon.

 

[Rob Hephner]

Nice report Rob.

I haven't had the PR2's on yet, but I did have PR's before my Storms. By "seat of the pants" I like the Storms better. Do you think tire shape has anything to do with your conclusions?

Also, could this be a technology "leap frog" situation?

thanks,

Tom de

Keep in mind that the max feeling of comfort is not max traction, there is always a difference. (I can't even begin to explain on the web.)

That being said, we all get a "feel" for performance. I am not yet considering "feel" yet as these are brand new tires and traction on virgin rubber simply isn't useful. Give me some time riding them and I'll report back.

Also, because of profile difference due to stretching the tire out the mid-lean position would have a good profile, it would just fall of quickly toward the side.

 

[dduelin]

I don't believe the supposition that Avon states that the 170/60-17 AV56 is made for a narrower rim. I would like to see that email.

http://www.avonmotorcycle.com/

No fitment is for stability issues as stated in an email from Avon to a reader here who posted it in the past. I think the rep's name was Joe or Joel.

But aside from that I have measured the tires and this sums up the differences in tire dimensions and wear area. The PR has 10 mm shorter sidewalls thus making shoulder to shoulder dimension across the tire surface longer. For the same lean angle when the Storm rear has no chicken strip left the PR has about 9 mm of chicken strip left. The piece of paper has marks that measure the tread width of an Avon Storm, a Michelin PR2, and a Bridgestone 023. 203, 209, and 214 mm respectively. What happens on the road is that the wider surface coupled with shorter sidewalls pulls the edge of the tread down toward the rim and away from the road surface, similar to fitting a tire on a too-small rim. Here is a PR2 rear with the marks of width:

The Bridgestone 023 has 35 mm sidewalls which split the difference between Storms 40 mm and PR2s 30 mm. Even though the tire has the widest surface area from edge to edge the taller sidewalls help the chicken strip stay almost the same - 10 mm.

I noticed the difference in tire contact area between PR2s and Storms after the first ride and posted about it. When I measured the tires it was obvious why this was. The difference in width between vertical uprights drawn off the shoulder is more startling. The PR is just 162 mm wide, the Storm 175 mm, and the 023 166 mm wide. Combined with differing sidewall heights the profiles differ considerably. The more rounded PR pulls up away from the road while the flatter and wider Storm lays down rubber right to the edge.

But at the end of the day tire feel is very subjective. Avon Storms are the gold standard of grip, feedback, stability, and symmetry of wear pattern for me. I just wish they lasted longer. I never really warmed up to PR2s and by 3000 miles started to show a lumpy wear pattern. These new Bridgestones feel much like Storms. In my opinion they are far ahead of 020s and 021s. If they wear better than those BS has a winner for me.

 

[Rob Hephner]

Did you measure the tread area? (edge to edge) I have not, but a difference in profile would make for a difference there, yes?

Do you have any video showing the pull away from the road you proclaim? That would be definitive.

The e-mail doesn't state narrow, it states "wrong size" I stated narrow and it looks as if the ST1300 wheel is actually smaller than the Avon was designed for. I need to measure a wheel without a tire on it.

I'm on record as really liking the Avon Tires and certainly not saying that they should not be used. I additionally have no position on the Pilot Road 2's as of yet. I was just commenting on an obvious difference in contact patch, which you seem to agree with, regardless of why.

 

[wjbertrand]

The Michelins seated well before 70, rather quickly. The Storms took a bunch of pressure, thus my concern was they same as you have.

Even 70 PSI would worry me. As I said, I've mounted all manner of tires including the Avon Storms, Dunlop Roadsmarts, Bridgestone 020, Michelins Pilot Roads etc. and have never even reached 42 PSI before hearing both beads pop into place. In fact my compressor maxes out at 80 PSI, so by your experience I wouldn't have been able to mount the Avons, yet I've done several sets. Maybe you are using a really high capacity compressor that gets ahead of the bead seating?

According to my contacts at MCN, Avon are withholding recommendation for fitmet to the ST1300 for stability reasons.

 

[Rob Hephner]

Even 70 PSI would worry me. As I said, I've mounted all manner of tires including the Avon Storms, Dunlop Roadsmarts, Bridgestone 020, Michelins Pilot Roads etc. and have never even reached 42 PSI before hearing both beads pop into place. In fact my compressor maxes out at 80 PSI, so by your experience I wouldn't have been able to mount the Avons, yet I've done several sets. Maybe you are using a really high capacity compressor that gets ahead of the bead seating?

Dear Lord can you guys nitpick.

I said BEFORE!!!!! as in a number lower than 70. I didn't mount the tires and I was watching from the side, so it could have happened at 40 psi, dunno. I do know for certain that the Avons at at least 2 mountings took 100 psi at least, which I found odd.

According to my contacts at MCN, Avon are withholding recommendation for fitmet to the ST1300 for stability reasons.

Semantics. I said nothing that would differ from that statement, did I?

 

[Tankereng]

My Storm 2's seated without ever exceeding the 42 PSI....

However, I'm getting a slow wobble/oscillation in the bars between 35-46 Mph.... Going to remount the tire when I get a chance and see if that makes any difference... I've got about 1,500 miles on my Storm 2's now...

In Regards to the size not listed for the ST1300, didn't Two Brothers say that the Avon rep stated the Storm 2's were good to go for the ST1300?

Thanks for the information Rob...well documented and thought out...

 

[Rob Hephner]

I have no experience or info regarding to Storm 2 tires. My reference is toward Storms.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dduelin]

Did you measure the tread area? (edge to edge) I have not, but a difference in profile would make for a difference there, yes?


The e-mail doesn't state narrow, it states "wrong size" I stated narrow and it looks as if the ST1300 wheel is actually smaller than the Avon was designed for. I need to measure a wheel without a tire on it.

Yes, here are several dimensions given in my previous post. Edge to edge across the surface radius of the tread, width between verticals (no radius), sidewall height.

Wrong size? Share the email, maybe we are missing something. Avon's website shows rim sizes 4.5 to 5.5" for the 170/60-17 AV56 Storm. The ST1300 has a 5.00" rim. The size is cast into the hub.

 

[Byron]

This is in regards to the fitment of these tires on the ST1300 ONLY, not a review of the overall performance of these tires.

There has been some discussion in the past about the fact that Avon does not list a fitment for the ST1300 or Pan European. While many of us have used the tire without issue, there have been some issues and as you read along and look, you may come to the same conclusion that I have.

I ride aggressively and due to the fact that I actively teach Total Control I use more of a tires usable traction range than most. That being said I am not looking to get to the limits of traction and I want the most possible traction available in all situations.


First the photos. (I have bad lighting today, I’ll replace the Michelin Photos when it gets better.)

Rear (Storms then Road 2’s)

Front (Storms then Road 2’s)

These are tires used in the same way on the same range and right off the bat I can tell you I had more traction at full lean with the Michelins versus the Storms.

You can see I have a good millimeter or two left that is virtually untouched, now for the reason.

Compound is a great way to get traction, but the first step is to have more rubber attached to the road.

During the mounting process for the Road 2’s is when things first came to light. My previous 3 sets of Storms took about 110 to 125 pounds of pressure to get the bead to set and with one rear it was rather difficult. The Road 2’s set with about 70 psi. Now that might not mean anything to most but it showed quickly that the Storms are made for a narrower rim than in mounted on the ST1300.

The issue that results when putting a tire designed for a narrow rim on a wider wheel is that is stretches the tire out and makes a sharper edge at the side, thus making the contact patch at lean less, how much depends upon the difference, but the pictures above speak volumes.

I’ll be tracking the wear of these tire obviously, but it looks right off the bat as if the reason tat Avon does not list a fitment for the ST1300 is because the tire simply doesn’t fit the wheel. If you are never near the edge of your bike I doubt this is a big issue and it honestly hasn’t been an issue for my riding at the edge, but it is useful to have knowledge, so I figured I’d pass the information along.

Rob,

The Storm St and PR2 tires are the correct sizes for the ST1300.

Avon lists a recommended rim width is 3.5" for the front and the ST1300 rim is 3.5". The rear Storm St is listed at 4.5" while the ST1300 rear rim is 5". Avon list 4.25 - 5.50 as alternate rim widths.

Michelin's PR2's are spec'd the same: "120/70 ZR 18 Pilot Road 2 170/60 ZR 17 Pilot Road 2 3.5 4.5" The 3.5 & 4.5 are the list rim widths. They show no alternate rim widths.

That would mean that both brand of tires are being stretched on the rear.

Unless you're leaning the bike over far enough to go past the edge of the tread you're not going to be loosing any contact patch. In fact with the tread stretched the arch is reduced and you would probably have more tire in contact with the ground not less.

From my experience the Storm ST has more grip than the PR2 and also less tread life. I just removed my second set of PR2's and although I don't I have the numbers I know they lasted longer than the Storm ST. I was OK with the handling and grip of the PR2's but the Storm ST and now Storm 2 Ultra's inspire more confidence in my opinion. It more than likely has to do with a slightly harder compound in the PR2's which would account for longer life too.

With regard to the pressure needed to seat the beads, this is only an indications of the lack of lubrication on the tire/rim. I've mounted many sets of both brands of tires mentioned and will usually have the bead pop at around 25 PSI. Maybe I use a little more lube than your tire guy.

They are both good tires and a good choice for the ST1300.

 

[dduelin]

Even 70 PSI would worry me. As I said, I've mounted all manner of tires including the Avon Storms, Dunlop Roadsmarts, Bridgestone 020, Michelins Pilot Roads etc. and have never even reached 42 PSI before hearing both beads pop into place. In fact my compressor maxes out at 80 PSI, so by your experience I wouldn't have been able to mount the Avons, yet I've done several sets. Maybe you are using a really high capacity compressor that gets ahead of the bead seating?

According to my contacts at MCN, Avon are withholding recommendation for fitmet to the ST1300 for stability reasons.

Jeff, for safety reasons I think most commercial-type motorcycle tire changers have working air limited to 60 psi even though they may be connected to 150 or 200 psi compressors. I wonder how a shop even gets over 100 psi in the tire if working on a tire machine.

 

[Mellow]

I do know that I've installed Storms, Storm2s, PRs, Dunlops and Bridgestones on wheels and I have always had to add more air to every tire after the 2 'pops'... I've only done one set of storm 2s on UNTMatt's bike but air still had to be added after it seated.

Is it possible you didn't have much lube on the wheel? I always clean the inner rim pretty good when changing tires and lube the center but also spray a lot of lube all over the tire with exception to the actual lip that touches/seats against the rim.. could this simply be a very dry wheel?

 

[Tankereng]

I have no experience or info regarding to Storm 2 tires. My reference is toward Storms.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you for the clarification.... I can't read... the 2 was referring to the PR"2"....