Brakes Linked?

[ukfan4sure!]

I just purchased my '01 1100 from a friend. He says the bike has linked brakes and that the left front is powered by the rear brake. Could this be correct? I thought the non-ABS versions were front brake all front, rear brake all rear.

 

[SMSW]

Linked. Secondary Master Cylinder on the left front side actuates a piston in the rear caliper.

https://www.st-owners.com/forums/threads/maintenance-items-needed-for-a-new-old-bike.176679/ Edit note

 

[ukfan4sure!]

Linked. Secondary Master Cylinder on the left front side actuates a piston in the rear caliper.

https://www.st-owners.com/forums/threads/maintenance-items-needed-for-a-new-old-bike.176679/ Edit note

But isn't that system only with ABS?

 

[Smudgemo]

Not likely linked. You should be able to see the lines running from the master on the handlebar to a splitter on the lower triple tree (I think..) The '97 non abs I cycled through my garage last year had two aftermarket braided lines that eliminated the splitter.

 

[ukfan4sure!]

Not likely linked. You should be able to see the lines running from the master on the handlebar to a splitter on the lower triple tree (I think..) The '97 non abs I cycled through my garage last year had two aftermarket braided lines that eliminated the splitter.

I just looked and followed everything again. A hard line runs to the left brake, and a hard line runs over the top of the rear of the front fender over to the right brake. My friend is full of bolonie and/or if mistaken.

 

[SMSW]

Not to my knowledge. ABS has nothing to do with the linking. ABS releases the brakes on the wheel that sensors say is turning slower than the other wheel. There are ABS and non ABS bikes, but that does not affect the linking. From 92 to 95 the brakes were separate (ABS was an option), After '96, ABS bikes' brakes were linked.
Edit: So if your '01 has ABS (the slotted disk on the wheels and the sensor) the brakes are linked.

 

[Uncle Phil]

Linked brakes are only for the ST1100 ABS models (I have some of each).
A lot more plumbing for the linked brakes and the front and rear calipers have an extra 'pot' in them.
And there is no 'secondary' master cylinder on the standards.
So you are correct.
On the ST1300 it may be a different story but I don't have one of those.

 

[ChriSTian_64]

According to @wjbertrand , in this other thread :

linked brakes | ST1100-Brakes

Hi, can anyone please tell me when the linked braking system came into paly on the st1100. I have an american manual that states that the system came in durring 1996, and a british motorbike review that states the all models had the linked system in the UK, which is correct, I have a 1992...

www.st-owners.com

Honda did not equip the ST1100 with linked brakes until 1996, and then it was only the ABS models. All standard ST1100s, regardless of year model, have non-linked braking systems.

 

[ukfan4sure!]

Not to my knowledge. ABS has nothing to do with the linking. ABS releases the brakes on the wheel that sensors say is turning slower than the other wheel. There are ABS and non ABS bikes, but that does not affect the linking. From 92 to 95 the brakes were separate (ABS was an option), After '96, ABS bikes' brakes were linked.
Edit: So if your '01 has ABS (the slotted disk on the wheels and the sensor) the brakes are linked.

I'm not convinced of that. I still think linked brakes were only on the ABS bikes, regardless of the year on the 1100. I can't attest to what they did on the 1300. I just did a hard look at my front brakes and they are a complete system with no lines running anywhere but the front two calipers.

 

[SMSW]

I'm not convinced of that. I still think linked brakes were only on the ABS bikes, regardless of the year on the 1100. I can't attest to what they did on the 1300. I just did a hard look at my front brakes and they are a complete system with no lines running anywhere but the front two calipers.

We are both saying the same thing. I said after 96' the ABS bikes brakes were linked. You said you think linked brakes were only on the ABS bikes. How is that different? I can only tell you what I've read about the early bikes - mine was a 1300 - and I have no first hand knowledge of those early ST's.

 

[ukfan4sure!]

We are both saying the same thing. I said after 96' the ABS bikes brakes were linked. You said you think linked brakes were only on the ABS bikes. How is that different? I can only tell you what I've read about the early bikes - mine was a 1300 - and I have no first hand knowledge of those early ST's.

Well then you confused me by saying that "ABS has nothing to do with the linking", to me meaning that linked brakes might be found on both ABS and non-ABS versions. My apologies.

 

[Ron]

The '01 came as ABS II or Standard, actually '96-02. There were a lot of differences on the 2. The ABS II bike came with the ABS packaged with Linked Brakes System (LBS) and Traction Control System (TCS). Both front calipers were part of the linked system. On the ABS II bikes, there is a grey plastic piece, right above the reflector and caliper, that has a sticker labeling for ABS-II and TCS. The ABS II bike have a dark grey 3 pot caliper labeled NISSIN in white while the non-ABS caliper is lighter grey and 2 pots.

Many brands came with linked brakes using one of the front calipers. The ST1100 was not one of them.

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[jfheath]

The combined braking system (linked brakes) on the 2000+ St1100s are plumbed in the same way as they are on the ST1300.

The front left caliper activates the SMC which operates the rear outer pistons.
The rear pedal operates all 3 centre pistons.
The SMC is mounted vertically, so doesn't have the same issues as the 1300, but the linkage is more complex, and hidden behind that shroud can rust up unnoticed and prevent the SMC from applying/releasing.

ABS doesn't affect the linkage although my belief is that those 2000-2002 models were all ABS/CBS/TCS. Ive never seen a standard model for those years in the Uk, but that doesn't mean that they din't exist.

The ST1100s has an anti-dive mechanism on one fork leg, so I don't think that it had the delay valve that was installed on the ST1300 to prevent front fork dive when using the rear pedal in slow speed manoevres.

 

[ChriSTian_64]

Simple question : when the brakes are linked.... how do the front and rear communicate together : via wires and an electronic control box or via a simple oil brake hose ?
If it is via an oil brake hose.... it also need to be bled.

 

[Uncle Phil]

Simple question : when the brakes are linked.... how do the front and rear communicate together : via wires and an electronic control box or via a simple oil brake hose ?
If it is via an oil brake hose.... it also need to be bled.

It is completely 'mechanical' on the ST1100 AFAIK.
There is line that runs from the front to the back to accomplish this.
I looked into it when I converted my 97 standard to the ABSII calipers but decided it was too much sugar for a nickel.

 

[jfheath]

Simple question : when the brakes are linked.... how do the front and rear communicate together : via wires and an electronic control box or via a simple oil brake hose ?
If it is via an oil brake hose.... it also need to be bled.

They don't communicate, they are designed to work together.

The front brake is hydraulically independent. The front lever and master cylinder operates both front calipers, operating the two outer pistons in each front caliper.

The rear pedal operates the centre piston in each caliper - so that is three pistons, two at the front, one at the rear.

The left front caliper bracket is designed to move. When the front caliper is operated - either by the brake lever, or by the pedal, the caliper bracket is allowed to move up a fraction. The movement operates a master cylinder which is mounted on the front left fork leg, and this operates the two outer pistons on the rear caliper.

So whichever brake lever or pedal you operate, the rear brake outer pistons is always activated.

The balance of braking force is largely controlled by the size of the pistons, but that circuit to the two rear outer pistons is governed by the proportional control valve. Because the harder you brake, the more the weight on the back wheel reduces, and the more likely it is to loose grip and skid. To prevent this, the proportional control valve reduces pressure in the rear brake line to the outer pistons, as more pressure is put into it by the SMC.

The secondary master cylinder has no fluid reservoir, but is fed by the brake line to the front left middle piston. This means that in the garage, when you press the brake pedal, all 3 pistons in the rear caliper will activate. On the road, however, that route is effectively blocked off as the left front caliper is operateing the SMC.

The same system has been adapted only slightly for use in the ST1300.

 

[Kevin_56]

The left front caliper bracket is designed to move. When the front caliper is operated - either by the brake lever, or by the pedal, the caliper bracket is allowed to move up a fraction. The movement operates a master cylinder which is mounted in the front left fork leg, and this operates the two outer pistons on the rear caliper.

Isn't the secondary master mounted on, not in the left fork leg??

 

[Uncle Phil]

Isn't the secondary master mounted on, not in the left fork leg??

Slip of the keyboard I'm sure - it is 'on'.

 

[jfheath]

Yes. 'On' was the word that I used when it left my brain. What my fingers do with it after that .....

Thanks for spotting that, the system is complicated enough without having to take apart the left fork as well !

 

[Uncle Phil]

Yes. 'On' was the word that I used when it left my brain. What my fingers do with it after that .....Thanks for spotting that, the system is complicated enough without having to take apart the left fork as well !

John - That's called a 'brain cramp'!