Building an ST1300 from the ground up.

[SainT 1300]

Sounds like you are building a FrankenSTein bike!!!!!

 

[Mandrake]

How about a supercharger? They put them on V65 Sabres!

I had thought about this, but there are several issues preventing it. First, the clutch cover bulge would prevent a pulley from ever being put on the front of the crank, and second, there's not enough vertical room under the tank for everything. Then there's the issues of low thermal efficiency and no way to cool the charge air.

About six months ago, I dug out my forced induction math book and started fooling around with some numbers. At a very conservative 12 PSI, the engine would make 225 HP and- are you sitting down?- 131 lb. ft. of torque. If I were to utilize a pair of Garrett GT12 turbos, full boost would come in as low as 3000 RPM, with that Himalayan- sized mountain of torque arriving at around the same time.

Yep, Ebay engines are cheap- I got the one I have for a little under $400 shipped, and that included the headers, airbox, TB's, engine harness and alternator.

 

[SupraSabre]

Maybe I'm building up my project bike all wrong!

 

[jjoyce2]

Great project. Great read. Fantastic design imagination.

Thanks for that!

Jack

 

[Mandrake]

Maybe I'm building up my project bike all wrong!

How so?

 

[SupraSabre]

How so?

I'm just restoring it so I can start using it for my commuter bike, instead of wearing out my 2010!..

 

[veefore]

Maybe I'm building up my project bike all wrong!

No one should be in that big a hurry to get to work? LOL

 

[Mandrake]

[QUOTE;1836852]check out http://aerocharger.com/ These have ceramic bearings and do not need an oil feed....[/QUOTE]

Expensive to buy, fragile and prone to failure, and expensive to fix. They're a great idea for something that doesn't have a pressurized oiling system, like a two stroke or a lawn mower. Mainly the cost, though... $2200 Aerocharger vs. $650 Garrett per unit for what I would need.

 

[Mandrake]

I'd tee in at the oil pressure switch using a 1/8 BSP to AN adapter, then run a hose to a four way tee (cross, whatever you want to call it) on which one end is the pressure switch and the other two ends feed the turbos. The reason you can't thread the tee directly into the block is that the weight of the switch will vibrate enough to fatigue the fitting and cause it to break inside the block. Fixing that is very easy, but you instantly lose all oil pressure in the engine and in the turbos when it fails. Turbos require very little oil volume to function properly, and a pair as small as the GT12's wouldn't even make a dent in the volume circulating elsewhere in the engine. For the oil returns, they would be on either side of the block a couple inches above the oil high level mark. Fortunately, where I'd envision the turbos hanging would make the returns pretty short and straight. I've seen some setups where the turbo had to be placed below the oil line, so they had to set up a dry sump for the oil return- a small tank was built below the turbo, and then a pump would pump that oil back up into the oil pan above the oil line.

I spent a little time with the tank off last night trying to visualize charge pipe routing and if an intercooler would be possible. There's not enough room for an intercooler pretty much anywhere on the front unless I wanted to hang two small ones out in the breeze on either side, just in front of the cylinder heads. I've seen a setup similar to this on a twin turbo BMW GS1200, but it looks clumsy and sticks critical components out in harms way (as if the cylinder heads of the GS and my ST sticking out weren't critical enough, right?). Back to my bike, I believe there to be enough room on top for a top mount intercooler integrated with a higher volume airbox. Duct work would be required to guide cooling air from the front of the bike through the core, and a small puller fan may even be implemented on the back side, but it looks doable in my head. I considered not using an intercooler for the sake of simplicity, but charge air temps would be on the high side of acceptable and would require more boost to produce the HP I want. Cooler intake temps = less boost needed = larger detonation threshold = quicker spool time to target boost pressure = better response = more .

 

[SupraSabre]

No one should be in that big a hurry to get to work… LOL

Not to get to work, but it would be fun to shutdown anything else while getting to work!

 

[Mandrake]

[QUOTE;1837197]The only problem I see is that the existing Fuel management would not be flexible enough for the changes. [/quote]

It most certainly isn't. Fuel management is only half the equation; when dealing with forced induction, spark control becomes equally important. Fortunately, Megasquirt can do both.

Why use twin Turbo?

Well, response time, mainly. With a vee configuration, there's no efficient way to plumb both banks of exhaust into the turbo. So, you end up with a lot of volume in the exhaust tract between the exhaust valves and the turbine wheel, and this allows the exhaust gas to cool and to slow down, both of which increase lag. If this were an inline and I had the room to place the turbo close to the engine, I'd do a single without question. In the interest of reducing lag as much as possible, and because packaging twins on a vee engine are easier than a single, I'm going with twins. Another obstacle with a single down low is returning the oil to the engine, which I talked about in my last post. If you placed the single high enough to get around the oil return issue- above the swing arm, to the left of the shock with the exhaust coming up through the hole in the swing arm- it would be even more laggy because it'd be even further away from the engine.

Also, be honest... which sounds cooler? "I have a turbo bike." vs. "I have a twin turbo bike."

 

[BakerBoy]

Honda TT1300. Cool.

(Twin Turbo).

 

[Mandrake]

Not to get to work, but it would be fun to shutdown anything else while getting to work!

Funny you mention shutting stuff down... I almost got shut down by a car coming home from a friends last week. I'd just pulled up to a light and a beautiful Chevelle pulled up next to me. I looked over and gave the guy a thumbs up and as I did, I saw the thing surging against the brakes. There wasn't anything sticking out from the hood, but I can spot blower surge a mile away. I thought, what the hell... and gave my bike a few blips and he nodded back, and when the light went green and we were off. Well, I was; he was busy trying to find traction. Once he found it, he hung with me up to about 80 when I rolled off. At the next light, he was grinning from ear to ear and I was thinking, "holy ****..." The road opened up after the light and turned into a four lane undivided highway (and it was late and there was no traffic), so we went for it again. This time, I was slow off the line and he got a better launch, so he was able to get out ahead of me. I found my bearing and gave it the goods, but couldn't catch up to him. He wasn't pulling away, but I wasn't reeling him in either. We went quite a bit faster this time, but when he called it quits, I didn't look down at the speedo because I was watching him. I got next to him and waved my arm to follow me, and we pulled into a gas station. I popped my visor and he said, "Want to see what 750 HP looks like?" hah... like he even has to ask. No, I would not like to see what 750 HP looks like. Turns out, this guy had a built LS6 with a blower on top and an automatic behind it. He was a bike guy too, albeit Harleys, but his car made up for that. He told me that he was into his engine for about 25. I replied with, "yeah, I'm into my engine for about four..." He asked, "thousand?!?!" And I said, "no... hundred. " We talked a bit more about our rides and parted ways. He did say that his car weighed 3800 lbs, so I went online to look at some 1/4 mile calculators where you can punch in HP and weight and it looks like his car is a high- 9's/ low- 10's car. Anyone with drag racing experience care to conjecture how accurate that is? Either way, definitely one of the fastest street cars I've ever come up against. So next time you're in UT, if you see a blue Chevelle with 20" Cragar SS wheels, give 'em a thumbs up and he'll probably pop the hood for ya.

Honda TT1300. Cool.

(Twin Turbo).

I'm kinda thinking custom "STT1300" stickers. I'd say STTT1300, but I removed all the Touring from the bike, so I don't need the third T.

 

[SupraSabre]

Funny you mention shutting stuff down... I almost got shut down by a car coming home from a friends last week.
...

Gives you even more reason to see what you can squeeze out of those 1261ccs

 

[Mandrake]

Gives you even more reason to see what you can squeeze out of those 1261ccs

Either that, or see what the 7700cc's in my Caddy can do.

 

[Mandrake]

Well, just about to turn 3000 miles on these T30's, and they're just about down to the wear bars. The front is shagged out on the sides, and the rear got it in the middle. I know this is a heavier, torquier bike than anything else in my garage, but I was really hoping for 6K miles out of the tires. They're great tires to the end, though. Going up the scale in price, I'm probably going to try the RoadSmart II's next.

 

[970mike]

Well, just about to turn 3000 miles on these T30's, and they're just about down to the wear bars. The front is shagged out on the sides, and the rear got it in the middle. I know this is a heavier, torquier bike than anything else in my garage, but I was really hoping for 6K miles out of the tires. They're great tires to the end, though. Going up the scale in price, I'm probably going to try the RoadSmart II's next.

My rear T30 on my ST1300 went a whole 2500 miles so you are doing better then me. My front T30 tire has almost 5000 miles on it now and is just about done.

 

[veefore]

Thanks for the updates guys, 6000 on my 023gt's (about done) and I was considering the T30's..........methinks not

 

[Mandrake]

Mike, I lied... I actually checked the odometer today instead of just guessing, and it's been 2500 since I put the T30s on. Closer inspection of the front has be deciding to just throw another T30 on the rear and see what the front does, if nothing else than out of curiosity since I've never not replaced a front with the rear. But yeah... 2500 miles out of ST tires on a 525 lb. bike seems a bit of a joke. I love how the tires perform, but am not impressed with the wear.

 

[970mike]

Mike, I lied... I actually checked the odometer today instead of just guessing, and it's been 2500 since I put the T30s on. Closer inspection of the front has be deciding to just throw another T30 on the rear and see what the front does, if nothing else than out of curiosity since I've never not replaced a front with the rear. But yeah... 2500 miles out of ST tires on a 525 lb. bike seems a bit of a joke. I love how the tires perform, but am not impressed with the wear.

That is why I went back to the darkside as I cannot afford to replace tires that fast with that few miles. I did like the way the tire handled during the short time I had it on.