Camshaft moved after timing belt off (newbee)

[Peto]

Hi everyone,
I have question about left camshaft timing on the Hobda ST1100 pan European 1992. I wanted to replace the timing belt.

So I have lined up the crankshaft punch mark with the notch on case perfectly.

The left and right camshaft were also aligned.
But than something went wrong, during the process of refitting the timing belt
I have moved the left camshaft beyond the mark on the reduction holder case and it pops 1/4 further. It felt like a spring moved the valve. I could hear it. So I stop to prevent damage to the engine.
And it can not turn anti clockwise.

All the other markings are still aligned.

Question:
Can I moved the camshaft 1 turn to align it back, without turn crankshaft and the right camshaft.
How can I align this back. The I need to rebuild the entire engine?
Thx in advance.

 

[Slydynbye]

I would consider pulling the valve cover and camshaft to re-align.

 

[cjames431]

You will need to pull the valve cover. Remove the cam bearing blocks and reposition the cam to the correct alignment.

 

[dwalby]

wow, that's really moved a lot, more than I was expecting to see.

I've never encountered this problem before, but what I think I'd do is remove the cams and rotate the pulley back to where it should be, and then reinstall the cams.

Do you have a Honda service manual?? That shows the markings on the cams when at TDC #1 compression. If you look at page 8-13 it shows the cam timing marks. One side will align to index LINES and the other with a PUNCH MARK, don't get them confused.

 

[John OoSTerhuis]

^^^^^ What Doug said.

John

 

[Roger]

It's an 'interference' engine, so be careful turning things round, or things will touch what they should not. Once you get all the marks lined up as in that diagram, that's when you can spanner the engine round a few times to set the cam belt tension and check your work.......

 

[ReSTored]

I was expecting to see the cam had moved a few degrees, but not the amount it did.

Is it possible that during the belt change the tensioner was so loose that during the test rotation the belt slipped on the pulley? Also, given that the camshaft appears to be out by 30 - 40 degrees it is possible there has already been interference? I would expect that the engine should be able to be turned anticlockwise. Once the cam is removed if it can be turned then this suggests there was interference. Or........... am I completely out to lunch on this?

 

[Peto]

wow, that's really moved a lot, more than I was expecting to see.

I've never encountered this problem before, but what I think I'd do is remove the cams and rotate the pulley back to where it should be, and then reinstall the cams.

Do you have a Honda service manual?? That shows the markings on the cams when at TDC #1 compression. If you look at page 8-13 it shows the cam timing marks. One side will align to index LINES and the other with a PUNCH MARK, don't get them confused.

Hi thx for the help. Yes I have the manual but it is hard for me to follow.

Are these steps okay:
1 Pull the left valve cover
2 Remove the intake and exhaust cams.
3 Rotate the left drive pulley to align again with the index mark while the Intake and exhaust cams line up the punch marks (outward).
4 Tighten to spec
5 Re-install the timing belt

So only the left cylinder?

 

[Peto]

^^^^^ What Doug said.

John

Sorry but did you mean what Dwalby said?

 

[Al st1100]

when turning the cam back into place is is also pushing a valve down. Since it turned as I would expect, it shoud be stiff to bring back but should not stop. If you try to bring it all the way around , a full turn it will stop as the valve will hit the pistons and just because them hit the piston doesn't mean they are bent. If you turn the crankshaft 10-15 degrees none of the pistons are at TDC and the cams can spin freely. align the cam marks back up then move the crank back to the mark.

 

[dwalby]

Hi thx for the help. Yes I have the manual but it is hard for me to follow.

Are these steps okay:
1 Pull the left valve cover
2 Remove the intake and exhaust cams.
3 Rotate the left drive pulley to align again with the index mark while the Intake and exhaust cams line up the punch marks (outward).
4 Tighten to spec
5 Re-install the timing belt

So only the left cylinder?

no reason to doubt anything in the right cylinder, but pull the valve cover off to verify the index lines are in fact aligned while you're at it.

regarding step 3, the pulleys have drive gears that rotate the cams so once you have the cams out the pulley should turn freely (although I've never actually done it to describe how much resistance it will have). After rotating the left pulley back to align with the timing mark, put the timing belt back on first with the cams still out. Then re-install the cams after the belt is in place to keep the pulley from rotating while you re-install the cams.

 

[Peto]

I was expecting to see the cam had moved a few degrees, but not the amount it did.

Is it possible that during the belt change the tensioner was so loose that during the test rotation the belt slipped on the pulley? Also, given that the camshaft appears to be out by 30 - 40 degrees it is possible there has already been interference? I would expect that the engine should be able to be turned anticlockwise. Once the cam is removed if it can be turned then this suggests there was interference. Or........... am I completely out to lunch on this?

Everything was okay before removing the belt.
But I have touched the pulley during the installation of the belt, than it happened

 

[Peto]

no reason to doubt anything in the right cylinder, but pull the valve cover off to verify the index lines are in fact aligned while you're at it.

regarding step 3, the pulleys have drive gears that rotate the cams so once you have the cams out the pulley should turn freely (although I've never actually done it to describe how much resistance it will have). After rotating the left pulley back to align with the timing mark, put the timing belt back on first with the cams still out. Then re-install the cams after the belt is in place to keep the pulley from rotating while you re-install the cams.

Many Thx, I will try this one.
I will post the result later.
Hope I can find the punch marks on the cams

 

[Al st1100]

to bring the cam back into postion there is no need to pull the cams, Bring the pistons off TDC and you can spin the cams all day long

 

[dwalby]

to bring the cam back into postion there is no need to pull the cams, Bring the pistons off TDC and you can spin the cams all day long

yeah, but with the timing belt off spinning the crank with both sides cams not moving in sync with the pistons might get a bit tricky.

on the 1100, pulling the cams is as simple as it gets.

 

[Al st1100]

1, Who said anything about spinning the crank? We are not spinning the crank, turm it 10-15 degrees off TDC now you can turn the cam back into position. With the pistons down a bit the valves can't hit. Now the turn the crank back the 10-15 degrees . dont turn the crank all the way around again. On many V6 engines (timing belt off) one cam will stay in place but the other side wants to spin. Done this too many times.

 

[Peto]

1, Who said anything about spinning the crank? We are not spinning the crank, turm it 10-15 degrees off TDC now you can turn the cam back into position. With the pistons down a bit the valves can't hit. Now the turn the crank back the 10-15 degrees . dont turn the crank all the way around again. On many V6 engines (timing belt off) one cam will stay in place but the other side wants to spin. Done this too many times.

So I need to find out how far 15degrees from the notch and turn the Crankshaft counter clockwise. after that I can turn the drive pulley as on the snapshot?
I am cautions with turning the crankshaft to align TF4 with the index mark to find TDC on the left cylinder.
Is it this what you mean?

 

[Al st1100]

So I need to find out how far 15degrees from the notch and turn the Crankshaft counter clockwise. after that I can turn the drive pulley as on the snapshot?
I am cautions with turning the crankshaft to align TF4 with the index mark to find TDC on the left cylinder.
Is it this what you mean?

you can turn it more you just need to get the pison off of top center. at that point you can turn the cam the cam will be easy to turn till it starts opening the valve. If a valve was hitting the piston there would be a dead stop. Once you get past the high point on the lobe it will spring the other way. get the cam gear lined up. you might have to get a wrench on it and have someone hold it while putting the belt on.. That side may have a tendacy to move.

 

[Al st1100]

 

[SMSW]

Everyone is focusing on getting the timing belt lined up. You will get there, but when you start reassembling the engine....
1. The 1300 valve cover gasket can usually be reused. However, there are two half moon (semi circular) depressions that need a sealant between metal and gasket - RTV is often used. I'm writing about the 1300 - check to see if what I am saying goes for the 1100.
2. When you replace the valve cover, it is easy to catch the rubber heat shield between the cylinder head and the cover. This will lead to an oil leak. Just be careful and go slowly.
3. Make sure the valve cover bolts go into their threaded holes correctly and do not overtighten them. Finger tighten them before using a wrench. They are small bolts and will strip out the aluminum threads. You are also putting them into a cylinder head that is canted, which makes aligning them more difficult. Now is the time to change the little rubber washers under these cover bolts. These compress over time and can weep oil.