Clutch issue.

[motornut]

I agree that oil can cause problems, every one I have seen is a slippage that shows up when the clutch is dumped, a very slow engagement but once engaged tends not to slip after it sets.
This one sounds like it is not engaging even with the clutch lever released. A worn pivot will reduce the throw of the slave cylinder,
I wonder if the pushrod maybe misaligned in the piston in the slave cylinder, or the clutch itself. Something is holding the clutch from engaging, a misaligned pushrod will still feel like the lever is still having play as the free play is built into the master cylinder. If the clutch is assembled in the correct order ( and I am not saying it wasn't ), It almost has to be mechanical, The slave cylinder pistons will leak if they get cocked in the bore and won't do anything other than drain the fluid.
Seems like you are down to taking something apart again, The slave cylinder is easy to pop off to check anything there. You probably won't find anything there but it easier than pulling clutch again.

 

[direwolf1012]

Clutch handle bushing was replaced in 2020, haven't done that many miles since. Pulled the slave cylinder yesterday and found no issues I will pull the clutch today. I did order new springs for it. We'll see if I need new friction plates after a couple of thousand miles.
Thanks you all for your input.

 

[direwolf1012]

Finally got the clutch out. Friction looks like new, and the steels. I notice that 8 of the friction plates have the notches and 2 don't. I had assumed that the 2 without notches were the first and last ones. Just saw a video the showed the first and last have the notches. I checked the original plates, but there are no notches at all. Did I receive the wrong combination of plates? What is the difference between them?

 

[direwolf1012]

Finally got the clutch out. Friction looks like new, and the steels. I notice that 8 of the friction plates have the notches and 2 don't. I had assumed that the 2 without notches were the first and last ones. Just saw a video the showed the first and last have the notches. I checked the original plates, but there are no notches at all. Did I receive the wrong combination of plates? What is the difference between them?

 

[Larry Fine]

Also check the edges of the fingers of the basket. That's where notches can impede plate movement.

 

[direwolf1012]

Still haven't heard about the difference with the friction plates, does anyone know? Got my new springs last night. Hope to assemble tonite.

 

[ST1100Y]

Here is a pic of loc 8, the 2 outermost disk2

and here loc 9, the 8 inner plates:

 

[motornut]

I am not sure why those are different, but the only way the clutch will slip is either over lubrication or the cover being held back from locking the clutch plates together. It sounds like your assembly process is has been scrutinized by you so there must be something holding the cover back. I do not think it is the springs although they must be eliminated from the equation which is what you are doing. When you are tightening the clutch cover down are the springs compressing the plates together. If they are being uncompressed the clutch pack is either too thin or it is lubricated too much. Too thick will make it unable to release without a lot of resistance at the lever.
Above is a recommendation of measuring the clutch pack to see if it up to being close to the one being removed, It should be thicker than the pack being removed. Was the clutch replaced slipping? If not it comes back to incorrect lube or the cover not compressing the plates.

 

[MaxPete]

Hi all:

There are a lot of urban legends about engine oil and many people think they are a guru - and it may very well be that the original poster on this thread has a clutch that is simply, worn out - BUT - here is the thing on clutches that suddenly start slipping immediately after an oil change, and please note that I do NOT want to start a debate about engine oil:

• did the engine oil have an API (American Petroleum Institute) service label on the jug that mentioned anything about "energy conserving" or "resource-conserving"?

If so, that oil contains an anti-wear additive package which can make wet clutches slip and so any oil with those words on the service label should not be used in motorcycle engines that have wet clutches (which means almost every motorcycle these days and certainly, any Honda ST1100 or ST1300).

NOTE: this has nothing to do with whether the oil is synthetic, what viscosity it is (10W40, 20W50 - or whatever), nor what service rating it carries (like SG, SH, SN - like the photo below etc.).

The API service "resource-conserving" label is entirely separate from any of these issues.

To be clear, you CAN use synthetic oil in a motorcycle if it is of the correct viscosity (which for an ST1100 or ST1300 is 10W40, if I recall correctly). There is nothing wrong with synthetic oils for motorcycle use - just so long as they do NOT have that "energy conserving" or "resource-conserving" API service label.

In fact, I have used a bottle of Harley-Davidson 20W50 synthetic oil in my Yamaha XS650 and it worked just fine.

Here is what the offending (NO BIKES) service label looks like:

 

[Andrew Shadow]

"energy conserving" or "resource-conserving"?

Oil labeled as such certainly should be avoided. The problem is that oils that have the additives that meet these anti-friction requirements may not be labeled as such. Labeling standards change with the times. Everyone can check for themselves, but as I understand it listing this on the label is no longer a requirement. This has become a matter of buyer beware and check for yourself when straying from the oil specification that the motorcycle manufacturer recommends.

 

[jfheath]

I missed this thread.


My first thing to suggest is to check that the brass bush in the lever is positioned so that the push rod is located inside the hole in the side of the bush. Put a mark on the top of the bush so that you know when it is aligned.

I assume that the 1100 has the same brass bush arrangement as the 1300. I should know, but I cannot remember. If not, ignore what follows.


The only way that you can check is to remove the lever and re-assemble it properly.

It doesn't cause the clutch to slip immediately. On a brand new bike it takes 7 miles before you are left stranded - as the fluid heats up.
If you have air in the system it may not leave you stranded at all, just be reluctant to pull away - due to clutch slip.

Reason - with the bush inserted incorrectly, the clutch master cylinder is always partially depressed. That means that the compensation port is closed, so there is a pressure build up in the hose. The only escape is to push in on the clutch slave.

It might not be this that is the issue - but if it is, it is a quick and cheap fix.

Unlikely ? Not if you didn't make sure that the hole is aligned. My current ST1300 was delivered brand new with this fault. I found out 7 miles later.

 

[Nashcat]

Reason - with the bush inserted incorrectly, the clutch master cylinder is always partially depressed. That means that the compensation port is closed, so there is a pressure build up in the hose. The only escape is to push in on the clutch slave.

I’ve seen this happen on a Honda front brake master cylinder. The owner swapped levers and didn’t get the pin in the hole on the bushing. First time the lever was pulled, the brakes wouldn’t release. Repositioning the bushing fixed the problem.

 

[Ron]

NOTE: this has nothing to do with whether the oil is synthetic, what viscosity it is (10W40, 20W50 - or whatever), nor what service rating it carries (like SG, SH, SN - like the photo below etc.).

I think the story years ago was any of the oils with a 40 rating or above, XX W 40, did not have friction modifiers in them. This is no longer true.

 

[ST1100Y]

The owner swapped levers and didn’t get the pin in the hole on the bushing.

Getting the lever in place to fit the pivot bolt must have been a real PITA...
Not sure if that's even possible without brute force...

 

[MaxPete]

I think the story years ago was any of the oils with a 40 rating or above, XX W 40, did not have friction modifiers in them. This is no longer true.

Sorry Ron - but that is yet another urban legend. The presence or absence of friction modifiers has nothing to do with the viscosity of the oil. They can be added in oil of any viscosity and their inclusion is signified by the API service label as depicted above.

Anyhow - oil threads scare me so Pete-out.

 

[Roger]

Does this help?

 

[direwolf1012]

Final Results: Actual issue was me buying cheap ass clutch parts. In the process I destroyed my pressure plate. Thank goodness for Ebay. Bought a complete clutch basket with all the parts, and plates. Finally did the clutch basket measurement and found the new friction plates were undersized. They also did not have the proper end plates. I used the friction plates that came with the basket and measured them with the new steels and it was right in spec. Running with new springs and the Rotella again... been using it since I got the bike in 2008 with absolutely no issues. I would like to thank all of you on the forum for helping out. Pete

 

[Ryan_B]

Thank you @direwolf1012 for the follow up! It helps us who will probably make the same mistake in the future.

And just a note on the Rotella T6 Synthetic... I know the 15w40 is not the correct weight, but it is currently rated for JASO MA/MA2 and even shows a motorcycle on the front label now. I think they change it every couple of months to keep the oil debates going across all the forums.



Ryan

 

[direwolf1012]

That's the stuff .... been using the 15W-40 for all these years.
I will look out for the energy saving stuff though,

 

[ST1100Y]

Actual issue was me buying cheap ass clutch parts.

Should have opened with that instead sending everyone here on a goose-chase...