FI light indicator at 75-90, loses power, gas mileage help

[troykahack]

I always appreciate all the wonderful help on this group, all comments.

I sometimes think it is like a right of passage to become a true ST1300 Owner to tear off the plastic until you can do it blind folded, like I used to be able to do with my M16. I have Peripheral Neuropathy from AO exposure. I have no feeling in my hands among other things and because of this, it is very difficult to handle these small screw/bolts/nuts and not to mention that it is easy to cut/tear/burn my skin without knowing it. So, if I can get by with only one experience of dealing with the plastic, that is what I am trying to do, to limit my exposure of hurting myself. It would be nice to have normal dexterity to do these normal things, but i do not look forward to do it one time, maybe twice, but trying to limit the times I remove the plastic.

I have a thermostat on order along with the O Ring needed to replace it. I hope to have an ECU in hand about the same time.

My first approach is to change the ECU/ECM as it is the easiest to do for me. It doesn't hurt to have a spare ECU/ECM as finding a new one is difficult and maybe finding the 03-07 used one will become more difficult as more time passes. If that doesn't fix the problem, then I am game to pull the plastic. I believe the life of this bike will probably outlive me. LOL

I know this is probably not the most practical way to approach this problem, and I am not trying to be hard headed about the plastic, but I just feel this is what is right for me. I have only seen the two bars one time since I have had owned the bike, and that was when I drove it at sub 50, like 44 degrees air temp. I normally don't ride when it is that cold here so it is possible the thermostat has been bad for some time. I mean the bike is 12-13 years old. And is not driven as often as a car is. That is an average of only like 2800 miles a year. Actually, you can almost put that much mileage on it just by going to the two or three bike events we have here a year. I live about 30 minutes South of Daytona. So, I am really not a every day rider. I used to ride more often, but as of the last few years, I have not road as much. My new lady friend rides a Harley and a BMW, so I am riding about every weekend now.

Again, not sure the Thermostat is cause of my problem, but is due to be replaced....

My Bachelor degree is in Computer Engineer Technology which later came to be called a Computer Science Degree. My graduate degree was in management. I learned working in IT, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" ... and I have applied that to most all my things I do. Sometimes you add new problems by changing things that have nothing to do with the problem. I am just a bit hesitant to change the thermostat until I am able to fix the FI problem. I have not seen one thread where the Thermostat fixed the FI error code 26? I just don't want to add to the problem. With few exceptions, my symptoms have almost always been caused by a bad ECU/ECM. I just wish someone was close by that I could exchange ECU/ECM's with.

Don't give up on me yet, I plan to concentrate on Gas Mileage this weekend. Prior to and during the code fault and if it sets, to keep bike moving, power off and power back on, and then reset the MPG and see what my mileage is before setting the code. The MPG is bugging me the most. I also can tell that at idle I seem to be missing a bit, and that is with three bars. If all else fails, I will pull the plastic and make everyone happy and get my ST1300 Riders Badge... LOL If I know if has a tiny miss in idle and higher RPM, I believe that might have something to do with it, but not sure.

i agree with Mark (Blrfl) on all that he says as well as others. I did start my bike again on the Center Stand and it warmed up and went right up to three bars, and the fan would come on and off just as he indicated. I ran the bike up and made sure it was warm, and it never went to 4 bars. I have only seen it at 4 bars one time, and that was on Main Street in Daytona, dead stopped, on and off, around a bunch of really hot bikes give off a lot of heat. I was burning up and the temp was like 90 outside. You are right, I have a lot of variables into my problem. Lets see if I can name them ....... problem didn't present itself until I put in 87 octane gas and if you read a lot of the threads, this seems to be a common link to this problem and has almost always turned out to be and ECU. It seems putting low octane gas sets things into motion??? Never seems to fail on Center Stand in gear.... speed related 75-80,.... gas mileage decreases..... feels like hitting a wind gust... a little bit of throttle seems to move through the wind... top end of speed doesn't seem to be a problem... cold weather saw 2 bars, only one time.... thermostat may be bad....

I want to check something this weekend. I plan to clear my MPG and see if I am always getting poor mileage all the time or just after the code failure. What is strange, once it sets the code, I can power off the bike and drop the speed down and turn it back on, and it will not set the code until I get up around 75-80. I just need to confirm for myself, am I only getting poor mileage at the time the code is set, or does my poor mileage occur all the time, at random, or all the time.

Again, thanks for the wonderful help and insights. I guess does anyone feel that the Thermostat is causing my problem or is just something that needs to be replaced? Has anyone seen a bad thermostat set the FI code? If it is stuck open will it have the effect of the large MPG loss I am seeing?

Thanks and a great site...
Rory

 

[st1300r]

something that needs to be replaced?

Yes.

Has anyone seen a bad thermostat set the FI code?

I don't remember any.

stuck open will it have the effect of the large MPG loss

yes.

If you're say 45?F out and see a drop to 2 bars at speed you have a stuck thermostat. At warm temps it may never drop enough to show two bars but it's still not regulating around the 185? operating temperature. The only way to test a thermostat is take it out put it in a pot of water and heat it to measure it's movement. At that point you owe it a new o-ring and you might as well put a new stat in anyway. It will fix A problem probably not both problems but it's easy to take out of the equation and you get a free fluid change.
Might even clear up the 4 bars at the relatively cool temp of 90?. Idling for 10 minutes on the interstate at 104? I never saw 4 bars.

 

[Blrfl]

I have Peripheral Neuropathy from AO exposure. ...

That certainly makes a good case for not doing too much with the plastic. If I were closer, I'd be happy to be an extra set of hands.

I have only seen the two bars one time since I have had owned the bike, and that was when I drove it at sub 50, like 44 degrees air temp. I normally don't ride when it is that cold here so it is possible the thermostat has been bad for some time.

That's a good bet. The mid 40s is cold enough for two bars to happen; ten degrees cooler and it's hard to avoid it. The cause isn't age or lack of use. The best working theory about why the thermostats fail is that the radiators on the first several model years were painted without the hose fittings corked off. That resulted in overspray on the insides of the fittings which, after exposure to the hot coolant, peels up and makes its way to the thermostat. I've seen several (including mine; see attached photo) that had a coating of black goop on them that probably contributed to them getting jammed up. There may have been a batch of bad thermostats, but at this point it's all ancient history and a $25 part that's easy to replace when you're changing the coolant.

I have not seen one thread where the Thermostat fixed the FI error code 26?

You won't. The two problems are independent -- mostly. The the temperature in and around the combustion chamber does have an influence on when and how the fuel burns, and because your ECM thinks the engine is running too cold, it's pouring in more fuel. When you put low-octane fuel into the equation, it's going to knock more than it would with 91 or higher under the same conditions.

Here's the kink: The knock sensor is a microphone made up of a quartz crystal sandwiched between two metal plates. When exposed to a shock wave, the sandwich produces a voltage that's sent up the wire to the ECM. (The ignition button on a gas grill works using the same principle to produce a spark.) Quartz doesn't conduct electricity, so the ECM can't test the sensors and wiring by running a little bit of current through it to check for continuity like it would for the fuel injectors or temperature sensors. The only way it can know if something's wrong is when there's enough noise that both sensors should be producing a voltage at the same time. Knocking does that, and I'd assume that running the engine above 4,000 RPM does, too. If one sensor is producing voltage and the other isn't, you get a fault code. If the fuel mixture isn't predetonating, the ECM can't know anything's wrong.

The failures we've seen most are wiring and ECM, the latter presumably being in the circuit that bridges the computer and sensor.

What is strange, once it sets the code, I can power off the bike and drop the speed down and turn it back on, and it will not set the code until I get up around 75-80.

That happens because the knock sensors can't be tested when the ECM is first powered up, so it's forced to assume everything is good until it has evidence otherwise. (It would have no way of knowing that you replaced a bad wire, for example.) That evidence doesn't happen until the engine's making enough noise (by being run at high speed) or pinging (by burning low-octane fuel).

--Mark

 

[Don B]

I always appreciate all the wonderful help on this group, all comments.

... but i do not look forward to do it one time, maybe twice, but trying to limit the times I remove the plastic.

I have a thermostat on order along with the O Ring needed to replace it. I hope to have an ECU in hand about the same time.

My first approach is to change the ECU/ECM as it is the easiest to do for me. It doesn't hurt to have a spare ECU/ECM as finding a new one is difficult and maybe finding the 03-07 used one will become more difficult as more time passes. If that doesn't fix the problem, then I am game to pull the plastic.
Rory

Sorry Rory, but you have to pull the plastic to replace the thermostat and service the cooling system. The maintenance schedule calls for cooling system maintenance every two years, BTW. You should only have to remove the plastic once, replace it after the T-stat change, coolant flush & fill, and FI problem is resolved. You can test ride the bike as many times as you wish until you're satisfied the problem has been resolved, doesn't need to be fully clothed to ride it (referring to the bike, not the rider). You may well find that purchasing an ECM before following the recommended trouble-shooting procedure is a waste of money. Replacing the ECM should only be done after every other possible cause of the problem has been eliminated. Personally, I would verify the wiring integrity from the connector at the knock sensor to the 10P sub harness connector before even removing the rear cowl and other parts and pieces required to gain access to the ECM. If a problem with the wiring is found there, you may not even have to gain access to the ECM in order to resolve the FI issue. The gray sub harness connector is behind the right middle cowl just to the rear of the RH cylinder head.

 

[troykahack]

I'm now convinced the Thermostat must be changed before I do anything else as it is just adding another variable to the possible issues i have. The plastic will come off. Here is why I changed my mind after riding this weekend.

I understand the way Bill (Blrfl) explained the knock sensor to me, it make great sense. It took it a bit to sink in but after today, I think I got it.

Today's focus was on gas mileage from the start and temperature gauge lights. I guess they had never been my constant focus. After I started the bike, I let if warm about 3-5 minutes, generally I just hop on and go, but this time I wanted to make sure my MPG was reset to 0. I noticed, no bars on my temp gauge. It was 70 F out. I drove it slowly up to the Interstate and in about 5 miles, I finally got one bar, and the gas mileage was terrible in like teens. Then I got two bars, reset mpg, and miles went up to about 25-28. Finally after about 6 miles at 75-80, I got 3 bars, but resetting my mpg, my mileage still stunk. Low to mid 30's at around 75-80. I am convinced that the Thermostat is open and needs to be replaced before I do any further trouble shooting.

What I did notice, we did about two hours of hard parking lot practice today, with the bike running at low speed but often in 2nd gear for cone work and sometimes at high rpm. You could feel the heat from the bike. When I started to run home, had a solid 3 bars, warm engine, reset the MPG, and was getting about 40mpg at about 80-85 which may be about normal at this speed. It didn't take long to set the FI indicator as the motor was very warm. Also, when the indicator came on, the mileage dropped like a stone dropped from the sky.

So, before I feel comfortable going any further and adding new problems to the issues, the Thermostat must be changed. An if that requires the plastic to come off a few times, so be it, I will deal with it. I still don't know what is causing my FI problem but at least I can look at the wiring when I change the Thermostat. I hope it is in this week. Should be.

I am already bidding on the ECM. If I end up with a spare, will be willing to offer to others for testing. Will update further after I change the Thermostat. I really didn't think the thermostat was that big of an issues until I paid almost all my attention to the bars on the gauge. It was casual looks before.

Appreciate the added comments and great info. And thanks for the offer of help if you lived closer. That was a nice jester.

Rory

 

[troykahack]

I won the ECU and wiring harness from Ebay. I paid $299 and $49 respectively . I hope to have my thermostat in any day now. I will update after I change the Thermostat as well as the results.

Just now a process of waiting for parts to arrive and change them.. I must change the Thermostat first because I don't need that variable in with my other issues.

Rory

 

[Don B]

You could get a head start while waiting on the parts by removing the plastic, draining the coolant, and removing the radiator & thermostat - just a thought...
Don't bother replacing the plastic until after you've addressed the FI problem (ref earlier posts).

 

[troykahack]

Don B,

Not a bad idea..... unfortunate, but the thermostat and O Ring is not due to arrive until Monday. It was ordered on March 25th and I order second day service. It was mailed second day USPS and somehow found it's way to Tallahassee Florida and sat their for a few days. It wasn't even shipped for a week. I had them find the parts in Tallahassee and they are not scheduled to arrive until Monday? Don't understand, but they say, and I know from the old business days, that Tallahassee is not considered a next day air type of place. Something about the State Capital slows things down. LOL The parts I ordered on Ebay, were packaged and ready for shipment on Monday. They were sent FedEx Ground, picked up yesterday afternoon, and not scheduled for delivery until the 14th of April.

Gosh, you guys really want me to start stripping that plastic.... LOL Its ok, it will come off. I have everything ready for the thermostat change. However, I have a long ride scheduled for this weekend and don't want to be the ugly dog riding it across the state without the pretty sides on it. It would look ugly.

**** Mark, I ordered those clamps you referred to in another post from 2011. Bit the bullet and ordered them so they would be here before the Thermostat.

Again, thanks to the group.... always awesome info.

Rory

 

[troykahack]

Ok,,, drum roll please. I am back to report my remedy to my problem and of course fix.

The Thermostat was obviously bad upon removal and inspection. Was always open about an 1/8". This did fix my fuel and running issues at low temperature, however didn't fix my FI error.

After removing all the covers, and finding no issues with the right side knock sensor, I did think I found an issues with the left knock sensor as the connector was not firmly set, however, this didn't fix my FI errors. After many attempts of wiring and other things suggested, I replaced the ECM (I bought used one off of ebay for $299), I replaced the ECM. After three weekends of hard riding in both mild and warm temperatures, I can report that the ECM fixed the FI errors and Right Knock Sensor Error 16 .

Thank you so much to this group for helping me to fix this perplexing problem You once again come through for me.

Rory

 

[970mike]

Nice that you found the problem and got it fixed. Enjoy the bike now!!

 

[troykahack]

Thank everyone here for the awesome help and suggestions. The admin can close as fixed. Two problems were in this thread.

FI indicator, error code 16. Poor full mileage after error. Remedy, replaced ECM.

Engine rides rough, poor fuel mileage when cold. One, two, three bars. Bad thermostat. Stuck open.