FortNine at it again
- Thread starter Tdinova
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2015
- Messages
- 1,962
- Location
- near Harrow, Ontario, Canada
- Bike
- '83 BMW R100RS
- STOC #
- 8870
....as I have said, this guy is good and he knows his engineering....
Pete
Pete
The quality of the F9 videos just gets better and better. This one was a beautiful piece of work, and informative too.
mello dude
Half genius, half dumazz whackjob foole
The guy is good.......
A great video with great production values and a very even handed video – no bashing. Well done.
haven't watched the video yet, but I have a feeling I already know the punchline. Back when Honda got into the V-twin market they didn't have a Harley-sounding engine, so they designed a new V-twin engine with the Harley crankshaft orientation to get the sound, and the HP figures went down something like 30-40%.
wow, who is this guy? I only wish the videos were longer....
Best thing about this one was the music. The rest- content, delivery, videography- are all superb. But man, the muuuuuuuusic.
I remember that. Not the HP issue but the court battle over Harley wanting to trademark their sound.
https://www.thedrive.com/article/11345/remember-when-harley-davidson-sued-honda-for-being-too-harley
ReSTored
Site Supporter
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2015
- Messages
- 1,962
- Location
- near Harrow, Ontario, Canada
- Bike
- '83 BMW R100RS
- STOC #
- 8870
He name is Ryan Kluftinger and he is a young chap from British Columbia who has a degree in physics and philosophy (an odd mix to be sure) - so he knows the science and he knows how to write, but in contrast to nearly every other moto-journalist, he has also taken the trouble to learn some engineering along the way. He is also a very highly skilled rider as you can see from some of his bike test videos.
Ryan's other Harley videos show that he also has a decent grip on corporate finance and the stock market - truly a renaissance man!
You can tell that he has a good education and takes the time to learn before he speaks because, for example he uses correct terminology and units of measure (he quotes engine torque in ft-lbs or N-m and not psi) and he doesn't talk too fast (c'mon down Revzilla!!) or clutter-up his videos with techno-jargon BS, as so many others do.
FYI, FortNine is a Canadian motorcycle accessories place with a major on-line parts and tires business based in Montreal. They engaged Ryan (known on-air as freelancer Ryan F9) to do product reviews and general interest pieces for them with the agreement that he will not pump products just to sell them. He only gives the products good reviews if the product is...you know...good. He also produces editorial pieces which can be pretty tough on some bike OEMs - but he backs up his views with actual data and facts - how refreshing!
BTW - for Canadians, I have found that FortNine has about the best prices in the country on tires and they ship very fast. I live in Windsor in SW Ontario, and I normally get my tires in about 2-3 days.
Ryan's other Harley videos show that he also has a decent grip on corporate finance and the stock market - truly a renaissance man!
You can tell that he has a good education and takes the time to learn before he speaks because, for example he uses correct terminology and units of measure (he quotes engine torque in ft-lbs or N-m and not psi) and he doesn't talk too fast (c'mon down Revzilla!!) or clutter-up his videos with techno-jargon BS, as so many others do.
FYI, FortNine is a Canadian motorcycle accessories place with a major on-line parts and tires business based in Montreal. They engaged Ryan (known on-air as freelancer Ryan F9) to do product reviews and general interest pieces for them with the agreement that he will not pump products just to sell them. He only gives the products good reviews if the product is...you know...good. He also produces editorial pieces which can be pretty tough on some bike OEMs - but he backs up his views with actual data and facts - how refreshing!
BTW - for Canadians, I have found that FortNine has about the best prices in the country on tires and they ship very fast. I live in Windsor in SW Ontario, and I normally get my tires in about 2-3 days.
ReSTored
Site Supporter
Pete's Superbike has great prices as well. I've ordered from both many times in the past. Just getting ready to order a new set of T31's; Pete's $303 + tax, Fortnine $314 + tax. Both ship fast, a few orders ago Pete's near Montreal got my order at 2:30 and tires were on my doorstep in Mississauga next day at 10:00 AM.
rwthomas1
Site Supporter
I'm no fan of Harley, but the over-square vs under-square argument is only the tip of the iceberg. Camshaft lift/duration, intake/exhaust port flow, etc. all play a huge role. Certainly the HD engine is a dated design. However Indian power levels and more are easily available with bolt on parts. Yes, it won't pass Federal emissions standards, and probably not the noise standards, but it will make the power with relative ease, regardless of the bore/stroke ratio. Pretty clear Fortnine doesn't like Harleys. But I'm not about to bash them, or the riders. Ride what you like.
Great video. I've watched a few of his video's, always entertaining and informative.
I can't ever recall seeing ANYONE quote torque in PSI, do you have an example?
FWIW, I'm going to add a little constructive criticism on this guy. He does a good job of presenting material, I'm in agreement there. Where I'm not quite in step with others here is in just how good a job he does. He gives just enough engineering information to convey the message, and not confuse the audience with too many details, but in the process he takes an extremely complex topic and over-simplifies it for his viewers. People who don't already understand the topic quite likely walk away thinking they've been told everything there is to know about the topic, when as @rwthomas1 said, he only covered the tip of the iceberg.
Back to my original point in my other post, here's two spec sheets for a virtually identical engine that Honda produced for their cruisers starting in the mid-80s. The VT1100C version produced 78.4HP from a bore/stroke of 87.5mm x 91.4mm. The VT1100C2 version was essentially the same engine, same bore/stroke, but they changed the way the pistons connected to the crankshaft to emulate Harley (both pistons connected to a single crank pin, giving it the weird, lumpy cadence that Harley is famous for). That change reduced the HP figure from 78.4HP down to 53HP, in what was otherwise the exact same engine (although they did also reduce the compression ratio a bit as well).
Since going from 53HP to 78.4HP is a 48% improvement, had they introduced these two engines in the opposite chronological order, the headline could read "how Honda makes 48% more HP than Harley", or "how Honda makes 48% more HP than Honda", and the bore/stroke never changed. So much for his original premise.
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drrod
Site Supporter
The one where he tries to kill a KLR is good!
Kevcules
Site Supporter
The KLR was indeed a beast! I had a 2004 for 10 years, before I got the ST1300.
That bike required very little to no maintenance. I checked the valves once, changed the "doohickey", replaced the spark plug and air filter and used seafoam in the fuel once and awhile.
The "doohickey" was mentioned in the video which made me smile. It's a cam chain tensioner assembly attached to a sprocket. This assembly has be known to break and or the spring attached to it breaks, causing serious internal damage because it maintains chain tension on the cam chain.
These bikes have a bolt head sticking out from the engine at around the gear shifter that is supposed to be loosened, then tightened at every oil change. What this does, is allows the spring to re-tension the cam chain if there is any slack in it. The problem is, you can't tell what's happening inside the engine while you're doing it so if the spring or the assembly is broken, you could be allowing the chain to get even more loose. That's when bad things happen. I read all about it on the KLR650 site. Great informative site, just like this one.
The job was fairly easy but you needed a special puller (nothing someone couldn't make.
) When I reached the tensioner, my spring was indeed broken , but the doohickey was still in one piece. The site said the spring would usually migrate to the other side of the engine and sit behind the clutch basket. That's right where I found it!
Shortly after I replaced the assembly and spring with a more robust aftermarket doohickey, I remember being at the Kawasaki dealership buying some oil and having a new tire installed, when the mechanic wanted to show me a crack in my rim so he brought me downstairs to the shop. One of the other techs was working on a KLR (imagine that) and so I asked him about what they knew about the so called "Doohickey" problems. To my surprise, they knew nothing about that problem, never heard of it they said and they rarely loosen the cam chain tensioner bolt and tighten it. (the manual says to do it)
One of them said "internet myth" Another reason to stay away from the dealerships!
On a final note, in 10 years I never had to flush the clutch or brake fluid. Imagine that?
Those bikes were used for travelling across the country, in many countries, on many occasions. Very popular.
While the KLR being bulletproof though, and having a huge 26 liter gas tank for the size of the single cylinder bike , I still welcome the St's comfort, power, 29 liter gas tank and very happy with the change!
Long live the KLR!
That bike required very little to no maintenance. I checked the valves once, changed the "doohickey", replaced the spark plug and air filter and used seafoam in the fuel once and awhile.
The "doohickey" was mentioned in the video which made me smile. It's a cam chain tensioner assembly attached to a sprocket. This assembly has be known to break and or the spring attached to it breaks, causing serious internal damage because it maintains chain tension on the cam chain.
These bikes have a bolt head sticking out from the engine at around the gear shifter that is supposed to be loosened, then tightened at every oil change. What this does, is allows the spring to re-tension the cam chain if there is any slack in it. The problem is, you can't tell what's happening inside the engine while you're doing it so if the spring or the assembly is broken, you could be allowing the chain to get even more loose. That's when bad things happen. I read all about it on the KLR650 site. Great informative site, just like this one.
The job was fairly easy but you needed a special puller (nothing someone couldn't make.
) When I reached the tensioner, my spring was indeed broken , but the doohickey was still in one piece. The site said the spring would usually migrate to the other side of the engine and sit behind the clutch basket. That's right where I found it! Shortly after I replaced the assembly and spring with a more robust aftermarket doohickey, I remember being at the Kawasaki dealership buying some oil and having a new tire installed, when the mechanic wanted to show me a crack in my rim so he brought me downstairs to the shop. One of the other techs was working on a KLR (imagine that) and so I asked him about what they knew about the so called "Doohickey" problems. To my surprise, they knew nothing about that problem, never heard of it they said and they rarely loosen the cam chain tensioner bolt and tighten it. (the manual says to do it)
One of them said "internet myth"
Another reason to stay away from the dealerships!On a final note, in 10 years I never had to flush the clutch or brake fluid. Imagine that?
Those bikes were used for travelling across the country, in many countries, on many occasions. Very popular.
While the KLR being bulletproof though, and having a huge 26 liter gas tank for the size of the single cylinder bike , I still welcome the St's comfort, power, 29 liter gas tank and very happy with the change!
Long live the KLR!
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rwthomas1
Site Supporter
Back to my original point in my other post, here's two spec sheets for a virtually identical engine that Honda produced for their cruisers starting in the mid-80s. The VT1100C version produced 78.4HP from a bore/stroke of 87.5mm x 91.4mm. The VT1100C2 version was essentially the same engine, same bore/stroke, but they changed the way the pistons connected to the crankshaft to emulate Harley (both pistons connected to a single crank pin, giving it the weird, lumpy cadence that Harley is famous for). That change reduced the HP figure from 78.4HP down to 53HP, in what was otherwise the exact same engine (although they did also reduce the compression ratio a bit as well).
What is interesting about this (from an engine geek perspective) is the torque peak only drops by 10% but it occurs at almost half the rpm. Having both pistons push in quick succession on the same crankpin must have a cumulative affect on the torque production. I vaguely recall the "big bang" 500 MotoGP engines of decades ago having the crankshaft timing moved closer together to produce a more predictable/tractable power delivery? RT
If you ever have a difficult time finding doohickies, let me know ... my Ace Hardware keeps them in stock.
You'll note it's advertised on their store facade, along with fudge and a post office ... found this at the bottom of their main web page:
"Over 6,874,534 doohickies sold and counting."
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yeah, I remember that as well, but haven't kept up on the latest race engine tech since the 2-strokes went away years ago.
But, in the case of the video, I think he's not really doing anyone a favor by stating that the HP difference between the Indian and Harley engine designs can be summed up in their bore/stroke measurements. As you started to state, many other things change as those dimensions change, its not as simple as "change X and Y will result" like he makes it sound. A larger diameter bore can support larger (or more) valves to improve the flow of intake air, rev higher without blowing up due to the shorter stroke, and inhale a full gulp of air more efficiently than a narrower, deeper cylinder.
The whole concept of engine design and optimization is extremely complex, uses computer models, empirical data and prototypes rather than hard theory, and has so many different variables that its disingenuous to try to simplify it to the simple basics he presents in the video.
And in the end, if Harley had just attached the pistons to a somewhat normal crank configuration, their HP figures would be similar to the Indian HP figures regardless of bore/stroke dimensions.