FortNine at it again

[rwthomas1]

yeah, I remember that as well, but haven't kept up on the latest race engine tech since the 2-strokes went away years ago.

But, in the case of the video, I think he's not really doing anyone a favor by stating that the HP difference between the Indian and Harley engine designs can be summed up in their bore/stroke measurements. As you started to state, many other things change as those dimensions change, its not as simple as "change X and Y will result" like he makes it sound. A larger diameter bore can support larger (or more) valves to improve the flow of intake air, rev higher without blowing up due to the shorter stroke, and inhale a full gulp of air more efficiently than a narrower, deeper cylinder.

The whole concept of engine design and optimization is extremely complex, uses computer models, empirical data and prototypes rather than hard theory, and has so many different variables that its disingenuous to try to simplify it to the simple basics he presents in the video.

And in the end, if Harley had just attached the pistons to a somewhat normal crank configuration, their HP figures would be similar to the Indian HP figures regardless of bore/stroke dimensions.

I agree entirely. I've spent the better part if my life building, re-building, modifying, tinkering, fiddling, etc. with all manner of engines. While I do very much enjoy Fortnine's vids, this one is simply BS. I was unaware of Honda's two different V-twins. But they sure do prove the point. The topic he attempts to provide insight on is incredibly complex, it can't be done any justice in a 10min vid.

RT

 

[Upt' North]

yeah, I remember that as well, but haven't kept up on the latest race engine tech since the 2-strokes went away years ago.

But, in the case of the video, I think he's not really doing anyone a favor by stating that the HP difference between the Indian and Harley engine designs can be summed up in their bore/stroke measurements. As you started to state, many other things change as those dimensions change, its not as simple as "change X and Y will result" like he makes it sound. A larger diameter bore can support larger (or more) valves to improve the flow of intake air, rev higher without blowing up due to the shorter stroke, and inhale a full gulp of air more efficiently than a narrower, deeper cylinder.

The whole concept of engine design and optimization is extremely complex, uses computer models, empirical data and prototypes rather than hard theory, and has so many different variables that its disingenuous to try to simplify it to the simple basics he presents in the video.

And in the end, if Harley had just attached the pistons to a somewhat normal crank configuration, their HP figures would be similar to the Indian HP figures regardless of bore/stroke dimensions.

I agree entirely. I've spent the better part if my life building, re-building, modifying, tinkering, fiddling, etc. with all manner of engines. While I do very much enjoy Fortnine's vids, this one is simply BS. I was unaware of Honda's two different V-twins. But they sure do prove the point. The topic he attempts to provide insight on is incredibly complex, it can't be done any justice in a 10min vid.

RT

Yes, I agree completely, the video simplifies a very complex issue.
But it's either a 10 minute video or a degree in engineering.
What he does however is give a simplified overview of complex engineering design in a way that fits in with the modern era, that is, bite size information for a "busy" world. It's no more than entertainment.
If you like, you like, if you don't, why watch it.
As an aside I've just read that HD are not attempting to make a large proportion of their fleet Euro 5 compliant, which makes most unsaleable outside of the states from January (I think).
Harley who?
Upt'North.

 

[ST Gui]

But it's either a 10 minute video or a degree in engineering.
What he does however is give a simplified overview of complex engineering design in a way that fits in with the modern era, that is, bite size information for a "busy" world. It's no more than entertainment.

I dunno. Though he occasionally misses the mark I think the simplifed overview is probably just right for the majority of his targeted audience. It's not like he's teach a class of engineers to design engines.

No argument that his presentation is extremely entertaining but a lot of us have long since cared about valve timing/lift/duration/etc. If he was doing a Wikipedia article I'd expect a lot more detail. Even on there the info is sometimes off.

I didn't really see this video as Harley but more of an it is what it is. There's a lot about H-Ds for for a lot people to like beyond 'image' that some may want. As for Harley bashing we don't need to go to another site to see any of that. though it's not site endorsed.

 

[ST Gui]

Euro 5 compliant

Does Asia have the equivalency of EU5 compliance? At one time H-Ds were much sought after though not in any large number.

At any rate I don't know how much doom and gloom is in Harley's future but I'd hate to see them turn out the lights.

 

[Upt' North]

This is one article on Harley I read. Sad indeed.
I'm certainly not a Harley knocker, I think the Road King with hard bags is probably one of the best looking bikes on the planet and together with some other pimply teenagers I used to ogle the back page of MCN in the mid seventies where they used to advertise an all black 1200 sportster special edition. It was just so, still is.
Sadly I think they're going the way of Norton, but whether a Chinese investor would be welcomed Stateside is a whole different ballgame.

2021 Harley-Davidson Sportster S review | all-new H-D

It would seem to include all models 1200 cc down including the new'ish 750's.
Upt'North.

 

[rwthomas1]

Yes, I agree completely, the video simplifies a very complex issue.
But it's either a 10 minute video or a degree in engineering.
What he does however is give a simplified overview of complex engineering design in a way that fits in with the modern era, that is, bite size information for a "busy" world. It's no more than entertainment.
If you like, you like, if you don't, why watch it.
As an aside I've just read that HD are not attempting to make a large proportion of their fleet Euro 5 compliant, which makes most unsaleable outside of the states from January (I think).
Harley who?
Upt'North.

Well, the problem I have with that is it's disinformation. It's incorrect. Bite sized or not. Billed as entertainment, but taken as gospel. He could just as easily said that Harley is an antiquated design, and power suffers from that, which would be correct.

RT

 

[dwalby]

Well, the problem I have with that is it's disinformation. It's incorrect. Bite sized or not.

yeah, that point seems to have been missed in this thread, whatever........

If he gave a simplified view of a correct engineering explanation that would be entirely different, but he didn't, and most people haven't noticed.

 

[Highway STar]

The main message I got from watching the video was that Harley is an antiquated design and power suffers from that. FWIW.

 

[ST Gui]

The main message I got from watching the video was that Harley is an antiquated design and power suffers from that. FWIW.

I got the same along with the implication that a lot of Harley riders don't care.

 

[rwthomas1]

I got the same along with the implication that a lot of Harley riders don't care.

Decades ago, Peter Egan in CycleWorld wrote about how great a Road King was as a general purpose motorcyle. Comfortable, reliable, good storage, etc. I thought he was nuts. Until years later, I spent some time with one. He was correct. Some people want that "look", and within that look, the Road King does things quite well. If you are past tossing a bike around and just want to ride, it works. Cruise at 70mph all day, comfortable, run to the store, commute, weekend trips, touring, etc. It's simple, fairly easy to maintain, etc. Not everyone needs, nor wants, the most modern techno gadget laden bike. I'm no fan of Harley, but the Road King was an honest machine.

RT

 

[Shawn K]

I'll thumbs-up anyone who references Peter Egan in polite conversation.

 

[caldercay]

I got the same along with the implication that a lot of Harley riders don't care.

I beg to differ ... I passed on the "other video" (where he explains Harley is dying) link to a long-distance friend[1] and she won't respond to me anymore.
.
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[1] Husband and wife ... each own and ride Harleys ... she recently bought a new one

 

[Bmacleod]

In my experience, the harley riders I know wouldnt mind more power, but if it doesnt happen, no big deal. Harleys are not bikes to them, theyre a name and a lifestyle. They have to work the word Harley into most sentences and at least half of their wardrobe at any time must say Harley on it. My neighbour is one such person and yet he only rides about 300 miles a year. The bike idles and revs more in his driveway than it rides. The tires look new but they are 10 years old. His daughter named her dog Harley and I said "thats brilliant, he'll never leave the driveway". The neighbours brother and his wife, for a weekend getaway last winter, flew to the Baltimore area and rented a car and drove around to Harley dealers, buying up memorabilia and clothes. He was excited about there being upwards of 10 dealers he could hit... Thats just not normal behaviour ...lol
When Caldercay says she wont respond, I believe it. Even if he is only the messenger, most Harley riders would take that as fighting words...lol

 

[ST Gui]

I beg to differ ...

One what point exactly?

 

[ST Gui]

In my experience, the harley riders I know wouldnt mind more power, but if it doesnt happen, no big deal.

The majority of H-D riders I've known over the years have pretty much felt the same way. Those who wanted more power were able to get it if they wanted to spend the money. But most liked to "go for a putt..." I realize we're all talking small data points but gobs of HP weren't on their mind.

The general hypocrisy of motorcyclists both amuses and disappoints me. It's as though people think there are motorcyclists and then there are H-D riders who aren't real motorcyclists but who wish they were.

In a previous video Ryan did disparage H-D riders some. He clearly doesn't have the "on two wheels we are all brothers and sisters" disposition that we have here.

 

[ST Gui]

l. If you are past tossing a bike around and just want to ride, it works. Cruise at 70mph all day, comfortable, run to the store, commute, weekend trips, touring, etc. It's simple, fairly easy to maintain, etc. Not everyone needs, nor wants, the most modern techno gadget laden bike.

When I'm at Alice's Restaurant I see a few H-Ds but mostly sport bikes. Same thing across the street at the Skywood Trading Post. Kids of all 18+ ages (probably) standing around in their branded leathers and boot while bench racing with all the others doing the same thing.

But when on my two trips to MT the most plentiful bikes by a huge margin were big H-Ds and it big packs. Second and not a close second were 'Wings. After that were the mix of adventure bikes and and sport-tourers like the Connie and FJR and BMWs. On occasion I'd see an ST. Of all the bikes the H-Ds and ADV bikes never seemed to be in a hurry.

Point being that a huge number of H-D riders who get on their bikes and ride. Maybe all their riding apparel is branded too. But they're riding. Nary a support truck to be seen.

 

[rwthomas1]

Why does a person do anything? The reasons are many, and complex. I know an airline pilot that owns a restored Waco biplane, and stated that if he never flew anything else again, that would be fine with him. People own old wooden boats, old cars, old aircraft. The retro craze has resulted in many new machines, that look old, have old styling, etc. and seem to be selling well. Harley and few others can be credited with at least staying true to the older way of doing things. It seems sort of ridiculous to laud a machine for its new technology when, like the Indian, its entire look/vibe harkens back to a time long ago. Guy that parks his tanker truck where I work has several Harleys. All of them are rats, but he rides year round, even in snow. Flip side is I know a Ducati nut that has three of them, and three matching sets of leathers, and puts less than 1000miles a year on them, total. It takes all kinds.
RT

 

[caldercay]

One what point exactly?

It was stated, as in the following:

that a lot of Harley riders don't care.

But in my response, i state that some Harley riders are "offended" ... : )

I beg to differ ... I passed on the "other video" (where he explains Harley is dying) link to a long-distance friend[1] and she won't respond to me anymore.
.
[1] Husband and wife ... each own and ride Harleys ... she recently bought a new one

 

[MaxPete]

I can't ever recall seeing ANYONE quote torque in PSI, do you have an example?

YouTube channel Bikes and Beards - lots of nonsense there.

 

[Sadlsor]

I didn't watch *this* particular video, Indian v. HD, but I WAS introduced to FortNine.
Blew 3 or 4 hours Saturday, binge-watching those videos... lots more to see.
FWIW, aside from most brand-specific vids, a large number of the topics presented, actually interest me.