Have ABS brakes reduced the accident rate?

[Mellow]

What @paulcb said... especially this year, alcohol might have actually contributed to the rates more than anything.

 

[Uncle Phil]

Either way, I wouldn't buy a modern bike without ABS.

I'm of the same opinion - even if I were to buy a 'not so' modern bike like a ST1100 ...

 

[Mellow]

I'm of the same opinion - even if I were to buy a 'not so' modern bike like a ST1100 ...

Yup... and now you have slipper clutches so keep the rear tire from skidding when down shifting aggressively, as well as traction control that helps someone NOT wheelie and loose control.. of course some tech now has wheelie control - which I have no idea how the lawyers allowed that...

 

[red one]

I would say the answer you are seeking is like a computer crunching out numbers to infinity. First of all today the majority of heavy weight and middle weight motorcycles have abs. Second abs doesn't avoid accidents because it is upon the rider to ride defensively and avoid accidents in the first place. Today a motorcyclist must run the gauntlet of cage drivers texting on their cell phones, drunk/drugged up drivers. Kids ramming you from behind while at a stop light. All these are more important than whether you have abs. I don't have abs on my car of motorcycle and i'm still here and alive. But I do ride defensively wear my helmet and ride with my index and middle fingers resting on top of my brake lever.

 

[paulcb]

Can you even get a modern touring/ADV bike without ABS?

 

[red one]

Can you even get a modern touring/ADV bike without ABS?

I know the guys I ride with have the new big Touring Harleys and they have it. Also the two BMW riders Have it So I would say no. Btw at least 2 of my Harley friends have crashed this year and they have ABS on their bikes. And no they were not leaving a tavern

 

[rwthomas1]

I don't really care if it reduces the accident rate or not. I care about the legislative reaction and enforcement that requires any technology.

Case in point: I had to sell a very nice 2007 pickup truck, that had been immaculately maintained, and in perfect condition. Why? Because I could no longer register it in my State. Why? Because I had a "check engine light" on on the dash. The truck had a small electrical gremlin, the computer reported "low fuel pressure", even thought it wasn't (verified many different ways) The vehicle drove normally, emissions were normal, etc. I spent a lot of time and money replacing parts and taking it to shops to try and correct it. But I was forced to sell it to someone out-of-State, and at a considerable loss. Due to the way the laws are written, I got a royal screwing. And I'm not the only one. People have had to scrap vehicles because the silly TPMS system was unrepairable.

What does this have to do with ABS? Well, if the EU is requiring it on motorcycles, you can assume that functioning ABS will be a requirement come safety inspection time. So how long will it be before the cost of replacing a bad ABS unit is so high that the bike is scrap? Or when the required part is simply not available anymore? Scrap the machine? Seems entirely absurd.

I'm quite sure someone will point out that ABS has been generally reliable, and even the 20+yr old ST's are still going strong. Yes, I realize that, but in my State at least, motorcycle inspection has not reached that level. Yet. Its quite common to "fix" BMW's by routing around that electronic braking system they tried. I could also "fix" any ST by simply removing the parts and routing around. Under increased scrutiny, that "fix" wouldn't be legal, even though its safe.

Now some will say no problem, just buy a new vehicle! Yeah, if that was the case, I wouldn't be riding, as wouldn't a lot of other people. Today's whizbang technology is wonderful, but it ain't cheap. And in 10+years when this stuff gets down to my price point, will it be reliable? Maybe. Will it still be able to be registered and ridden? That remains to be seen. Depends on what the State decides to do in the future. But considering Govt's propensity to increase its reach in the name of our "safety", I'm not too optimistic.

I can't wait to see what happens when the sensors in the mirrors on new cars, that inform the driver of a vehicle in the "blind spot" (because the driver is too lazy to turn their damned head) start crapping out or are no longer available. Will that trigger an inspection fail? If there's light on the dash for it, in my State it will, and a trip to the scrapyard over a piece of entirely superfluous equipment.

So lets define it at the "pre-ridiculous" and "post-ridiculous" eras. I have the skillset to keep old things running, almost indefinitely, if built in the "pre-ridiculous" era, like the ST1100's. Heck, any machinery built prior to can-bus systems, say 2003 or so and earlier. So likely I'm good until they nail the lid on. But what about the future of motorcycling? Used to be that starter bike could be had cheap and easy. Still is that way. But moving forward, if the cost to keep older machines increases and the only alternative is new, there will be less motorcyclists for sure.

And with less motorcycles, that'll be much "safer", won't it....

RT

 

[red one]

I don't really care if it reduces the accident rate or not. I care about the legislative reaction and enforcement that requires any technology.

Case in point: I had to sell a very nice 2007 pickup truck, that had been immaculately maintained, and in perfect condition. Why? Because I could no longer register it in my State. Why? Because I had a "check engine light" on on the dash. The truck had a small electrical gremlin, the computer reported "low fuel pressure", even thought it wasn't (verified many different ways) The vehicle drove normally, emissions were normal, etc. I spent a lot of time and money replacing parts and taking it to shops to try and correct it. But I was forced to sell it to someone out-of-State, and at a considerable loss. Due to the way the laws are written, I got a royal screwing. And I'm not the only one. People have had to scrap vehicles because the silly TPMS system was unrepairable.

What does this have to do with ABS? Well, if the EU is requiring it on motorcycles, you can assume that functioning ABS will be a requirement come safety inspection time. So how long will it be before the cost of replacing a bad ABS unit is so high that the bike is scrap? Or when the required part is simply not available anymore? Scrap the machine? Seems entirely absurd.

I'm quite sure someone will point out that ABS has been generally reliable, and even the 20+yr old ST's are still going strong. Yes, I realize that, but in my State at least, motorcycle inspection has not reached that level. Yet. Its quite common to "fix" BMW's by routing around that electronic braking system they tried. I could also "fix" any ST by simply removing the parts and routing around. Under increased scrutiny, that "fix" wouldn't be legal, even though its safe.

Now some will say no problem, just buy a new vehicle! Yeah, if that was the case, I wouldn't be riding, as wouldn't a lot of other people. Today's whizbang technology is wonderful, but it ain't cheap. And in 10+years when this stuff gets down to my price point, will it be reliable? Maybe. Will it still be able to be registered and ridden? That remains to be seen. Depends on what the State decides to do in the future. But considering Govt's propensity to increase its reach in the name of our "safety", I'm not too optimistic.

I can't wait to see what happens when the sensors in the mirrors on new cars, that inform the driver of a vehicle in the "blind spot" (because the driver is too lazy to turn their damned head) start crapping out or are no longer available. Will that trigger an inspection fail? If there's light on the dash for it, in my State it will, and a trip to the scrapyard over a piece of entirely superfluous equipment.

So lets define it at the "pre-ridiculous" and "post-ridiculous" eras. I have the skillset to keep old things running, almost indefinitely, if built in the "pre-ridiculous" era, like the ST1100's. Heck, any machinery built prior to can-bus systems, say 2003 or so and earlier. So likely I'm good until they nail the lid on. But what about the future of motorcycling? Used to be that starter bike could be had cheap and easy. Still is that way. But moving forward, if the cost to keep older machines increases and the only alternative is new, there will be less motorcyclists for sure.

And with less motorcycles, that'll be much "safer", won't it....

RT

You are 100 percent correct. In the future your inspections will probably be like this. You pull your vehicle into the inspection station and they tell you MR or MRS open your hood. When they see a gasoline combustible engine in your vehicle....automatic fail. But the state will issue you a $1000.00 coupon to defray the cost of your new electric vehicle

 

[Sadlsor]

@rwthomas1 I could not agree with you more.
No need for me to go on my "freedom of choice" rant, nor the obvious dissolution of many of our liberties here in the USA.
Still, on the UPside (unusual for me, to some extent) -- we DO still have choices.
We can ride or drive.
Stay well.

 

[Daboo]

Answer: No.

If you're old enough like me, you can remember when ABS was introduced to cars, even if you were only a teenager. I can remember when they told us to stay back a car length for every 10 mph, and then to stay back at least 2 seconds. There were a few people who tail-gated, but nothing like today.

Once ABS became more mainstream, people started tailgating more often till sometimes it is like they are drafting the car ahead of them. "Why worry? When I see the brake lights, I can just mash the brakes and all will be well."

So...no, ABS and air bags haven't done anything to lessen the accident rate at all. I'd be willing to bet the accident rate has increased.

But...I want those two items for any vehicle I drive or ride.

Chris

 

[wjbertrand]

I have owned a couple of Goldwings with ABS and never once noticed it making my stopping distance less than bikes without it.

This is a common misconception about ABS. On dry, normal pavement ABS is not designed to stop you in a shorter distance, it is designed to avoid loss of control during stopping by preventing wheel locking and skids. On brake testing runs I participated in with MCN (RIP) the expert riders. on clean dry pavement. could often out stop the ABS by a few feet, but never on the first try. They would work up to it with several test stops to find the limit. High mileage experienced riders could come close to matching a full ABS stop but in my experience, none of them ever beat it. Including myself among experienced high mileage riders, the ABS could commonly beat my non-ABS best effort by 5-10 feet.

On compromised surfaces (oil, coolant, sand) it will often stop the bike shorter because it's impossible, even for expert riders, to sense exactly how much traction there is so 99.9% of riders brake too little or they fall off. None of the expert rider/contributors to MCN at our session were able to outstop ABS on such surfaces.

 

[Nashcat]

Here's the problem... how would you know?

I‘m pretty sure that ABS saved my butt on one occasion, when I wasn’t acting my age. The incident never was included into any study.

John

 

[STraymond]

It was a pure guess on my part Phil.
But the question, like all questions, probably has more than one answer.
So............yes.........or no.
Upt'North

Sounds like a firm "maybe"....

 

[dduelin]

I hear that ABS won't allow me to "lay 'er down" in order to prevent an accident. What's up with that?

 

[Uncle Phil]

I hear that ABS won't allow me to "lay 'er down" in order to prevent an accident. What's up with that?

If you feel the need, then go right ahead - I'm sure the ABS won't stop you ...

 

[paulcb]

I hear that ABS won't allow me to "lay 'er down" in order to prevent an accident. What's up with that?

That's the advanced version of 'slowing down'. I've not worked up to that yet.

 

[Mellow]

That's the advanced version of 'slowing down'. I've not worked up to that yet.

I think you actually work down to that....

 

[Chef Jim]

I get RWThomas1's point. In certain states cars can't pass inspection due to emissions or non-working safety measures, so they literally get sold down the road (someplace they can pass). At some point bikes will have a tougher inspection and they may have the same problem. That being said I'm a firm believer in ABS. Saved my butt more than once on the bike or in the car. Try doing a controlled skid on a Dyna Wide Glide and you will wish for ABS. The last two bikes have had it and I certainly prefer it on my bikes.

 

[V4 Rider]

In Europe ABS was only an option on ST13 during 02 an 03 model years. Been standard fit since 04 model years. Was amazed to find it remained an option in US market.

 

[Bmacleod]

Here's the problem... how would you know?

It activates and doesn't cause an accident so no police or insurance report is created. So, how would you even collect those stats? That's assuming you can tell if it's been activated. They've come a long way and in the newer bikes you might not ever know unless it was during an extreme event.

This^^... ABS is like deer whistles. If you have the whistles and never see a deer, was it because of the whistle??? Im guessing that ABS has prevented a lot of accidents, but how could you prove it or put numbers to it.