Have ABS brakes reduced the accident rate?

[Trump]

I’m afraid I’ve lost The link to this study.

A German company that rented cars pre-and post ABS found its cars were in slightly more accidents if they had abs.

If I find the link I’ll post it

 

[Mellow]

I’m afraid I’ve lost The link to this study.

A German company that rented cars pre-and post ABS found its cars were in slightly more accidents if they had abs.

If I find the link I’ll post it

Ah...cars, I'll move this to off topic then lol.

 

[Sadlsor]

People who *genuinely* believe that, crack me up.
Because we ALL know that steel, or better yet, plastic, sliding along concrete or asphalt provides SO much more friction and stopping power, than proper weight transfer and the friction coefficient of decent rubber whilst remaining upright under proficient application of the brakes.
Even if you DO hit your obstacle, proper braking will offer reduced closing speeds than giving up and sliding in.
(For those of you unfamiliar with "sarcasm", please look that word up in a dictionary, whether online or on the shelf.)

 

[beemerphile]

The "ABS saved my bacon" crowd seems to deduce that every time their ABS kicked in, they would have crashed without it. I avoid ABS when I can (like my ST1100's and NC700x) and I took it off of my K1100RS. I've had the ST sideways a few times but none of them resulted in a spill. My 2013 GS had excellent ABS (unlike the old K1100RS) but in five years it never activated except when I tested it on my gravel driveway. It probably helps, OK I'm sure it helps, but I am perfectly content to avoid the expense, weight, and complexity and just work on keeping my skills up. I practice front wheel lockups on my driveway regularly. I've never crashed from a braking error in 53 years of this two-wheeled nonsense, but of course my comeuppance could arrive tomorrow.

 

[Bmacleod]

I’m afraid I’ve lost The link to this study.

A German company that rented cars pre-and post ABS found its cars were in slightly more accidents if they had abs.

If I find the link I’ll post it

I don't know about in Germany but I think that most places in the world had a lot fewer cars on the road in the post-abs days then there are now. There are other variables, but that one point alone would make me think you couldn't possibly compare the data from then till now.

 

[rwthomas1]

To be clear: I'm not against the technology. If you want it, and are willing to pay for it, why not? When you are essentially forcing me to purchase and maintain something I may not want, and then further penalize me when repair/maintenance is not feasible or possible, then I have an issue. The rules don't have to be so utterly inflexible as what I have faced previously. An easy way around repair of expensive non-essential systems would be to allow a waiver when said repair exceeds X percentage of vehicle value. But I've yet to see such a system. RT

 

[CYYJ]

Case in point: I had to sell a very nice 2007 pickup truck, that had been immaculately maintained, and in perfect condition. Why? Because I could no longer register it in my State. Why? Because I had a "check engine light" on on the dash.

Hi RT:

I understand and appreciate the point that you are making, but I don't think your experience was a result of safety standards enforcement.

The rationale of your state in preventing you from registering a vehicle with a Check Engine Light (CEL) illuminated was based on emissions control regulations, not on vehicle safety.

Michael

 

[rwthomas1]

Hi RT:

I understand and appreciate the point that you are making, but I don't think your experience was a result of safety standards enforcement.

The rationale of your state in preventing you from registering a vehicle with a Check Engine Light (CEL) illuminated was based on emissions control regulations, not on vehicle safety.

Michael

I understand your point Michael. However, are ABS brakes "critical safety" systems, or just really nice to have? If ABS is truly critical, then why would they allow non-ABS equipped vehicles to continue to use the roads? Additionally, i know someone who had to dump a car, much like I did, due to an unsolvable TPMS system error. TPMS light meant no registration. TPMS (tire pressure monitoring systems) are nice, but are they critical for operation? Again, all the older cars still seem to be operating just fine without it. Additionally, ultimately both the TPMS and ABS lights can be illuminated, yet the vehicle may still be operated in a safe manner if the driver ignores the lights. Indeed, in States where they don't inspect for these things, this is exactly what happens. RT

 

[drrod]

Forcing the disposal of a vehicle because of check engine light or TPMS light is a good example of unintended consequences when a regulation is written. (not to mention bordering on nonsensical). The problem is that once promulgated, reversing/revising is nigh impossible.

So, what happens if you just disconnect the light?

 

[beemerphile]

It could be worse. Joan Claybrook could still be commissioning innovative safe motorcycle designs at the NHTSA....

 

[Bmacleod]

So, what happens if you just disconnect the light?

In Ontario, they are supposed to check for codes in the computer for certifications (safety checks). As far as I understand, most do it, but some dont. I dont know about elsewhere, but it is possible that some jurisdictions enforce it

 

[drrod]

In Ontario, they are supposed to check for codes in the computer for certifications (safety checks). As far as I understand, most do it, but some dont. I dont know about elsewhere, but it is possible that some jurisdictions enforce it

Knowing very little about OBDC, are they hackable? Seems it would be relatively simple to fool it. At least enough to get it by those who do the vehicle inspections. Not talking VW emissions level stuff.
Asking for a friend!

 

[Upt' North]

I understand your point Michael. However, are ABS brakes "critical safety" systems, or just really nice to have? If ABS is truly critical, then why would they allow non-ABS equipped vehicles to continue to use the roads? Additionally, i know someone who had to dump a car, much like I did, due to an unsolvable TPMS system error. TPMS light meant no registration. TPMS (tire pressure monitoring systems) are nice, but are they critical for operation? Again, all the older cars still seem to be operating just fine without it. Additionally, ultimately both the TPMS and ABS lights can be illuminated, yet the vehicle may still be operated in a safe manner if the driver ignores the lights. Indeed, in States where they don't inspect for these things, this is exactly what happens. RT

Same in the UK as far as I am aware, it's probably an EU regulation that is being adopted.
Perfectly good vehicles are going to the crusher for dash warnings that have no relevance to an actual safety issue.
I was in having a couple of tyres done on the car when a chap came in to collect his not so old Nissan SUV (probably around 6 years old and worth around 10K) that had failed its MOT inspection on a check engine light showing. There were no emission faults or safety issues, just the light. He argued his point and had apparently tried to get it fixed on many occasions but with no joy. He seemed genuine.
But no pass was issued and until it was fixed it would have to stay off the road. He did enquire about simply removing the light but they said if the light wasn't working they would fail it anyway.
Welcome to the new world.
Upt'North.

 

[rwthomas1]

The light cannot be simply "unplugged". The minimum inspectors will do is check to see that the light illuminates on startup, and shuts off 3-5 seconds into operation after system self diagnostics, that is the normal. In theory, the CEL light could be rigged to a timed relay, and appear to be functioning normally. But if they plug in to the diagnostic port and scan the vehicle, they will know something isn't right.

Some of the systems are indeed "hackable" and can be modified by people who have the specialized knowledge. In the past, this was largely overlooked. However the EPA has most recently started cracking down on aftermarket "tuners" that charge to modify or remove emissions controls for "off-road" use only. The result is people are now leery of modifying software and running afoul of the law. Believe me I tried to find someone to change the parameters, or remove the lines of code that were causing the problem on my truck.

The question is, how much do you want to regulate "safety"? The powers that be can easily require all of us to wear a certain level of head/neck protection, far above what is currently recommended. They could require us to wear a Helite type airbag vest. The technology exists to simply limit the speed of any vehicle electronically, via GPS, to the posted speed limit. I mean, after all, its in the name of SAFETY, is it not? Or maybe not allow the motorcycle to start below 32*F because you may crash due to ice? The options for increased "safety" abound....

So yeah, ABS is great. You want it, buy it. I may in future. But tell me I HAVE to have it. I HAVE to pay for it. I HAVE to maintain it. Or else, I can't use the machine, and well, my blood pressure jumps 30-40 points and both middle fingers start to automatically deploy towards whomever thinks this is a good idea to force me to do something. The modern world is becoming so risk averse that the only accepted way to experience the world will be through HD TV, video games and social media. The only threat a massive coronary due to obesity from sitting on the couch afraid of living.

My brother was strutting around years back, puffed up about his new HD TV. Said I had to come over and experience it, viewing it was "just like being there" I declined, and stated that I was going sailing that weekend, on my "HD sailboat", its amazing, because it is ACTUALLY being there....

And now, this thread is thoroughly off-track!

RT

 

[Sadlsor]

@rwthomas1 speaks my language.
While "off-topic" of the original post, the sentiment is extraordinarily relevant to personal liberty, and ultimately, our choice of motorcycle.
Huh. Imagine that.

 

[CYYJ]

...are ABS brakes "critical safety" systems, or just really nice to have?

That's a tough question.

Disregarding motorcycles, for four-wheeled vehicles - and especially for 18 wheeled vehicles - I would say that ABS is a safety-critical system. More importantly, the safety benefit arising from ABS doesn't extend only to the operator & passengers in the vehicle with the ABS system, it extends to other vehicles and pedestrians on the road who don't get hit by a vehicle that has gone out of control due to wheels locking up under hard braking.

Things get more troublesome & hard to justify - this is the "slippery slope" problem - when we look at other safety systems that have recently been mandated for new-build vehicles but have less of an impact on safety of others. I'm thinking of back-up cameras, TPMS, passenger airbag not active warning lights, stuff like that.

If we look at the progression of vehicle safety systems over the past 60 years (since Ralph Nader wrote his famous books), it's clear that the earliest innovations made the biggest difference - things like seat belts, disc brakes, 4 way flashers, front seat airbags, etc. Innovation continues, but the gains from new innovations become smaller & smaller as time goes on. It's a bit like software development... it was a big thing when Microsoft Word introduced a spelling checker with version 3.0, it's somewhat less exciting that last week's online update for Office 365 version 33.6 introduced punctuation checking for 4 dead languages that no-one has spoken in the past 100 years.

Overall, I think that maintaining functionality of vehicle safety systems, whether they are big ones like ABS or less significant ones like back-up cameras, functions as a proxy for how well a vehicle itself is maintained. Back when I was a teen, I could go to Farmer Jones used cars and pick up a schittebox for $25 to use for the next couple of weeks - when the gas tank got empty and the ashtray got full, one took the licence plates off and left it in a grocery store parking lot. No safety checks, no standards at all - if you could start it and put it in gear, it was roadworthy. Those days are now gone, but at the same time, mortality arising from traffic accidents is way, way down.

Michael

 

[paulcb]

I’m afraid I’ve lost The link to this study.

A German company that rented cars pre-and post ABS found its cars were in slightly more accidents if they had abs.

If I find the link I’ll post it

Cars? Maybe you could have mentioned that in your original post?

 

[Bmacleod]

Knowing very little about OBDC, are they hackable? Seems it would be relatively simple to fool it. At least enough to get it by those who do the vehicle inspections. Not talking VW emissions level stuff.
Asking for a friend!

I have never heard of anyone hacking an OBD setup, but that doesnt mean you cant, just that I dont follow it much.

 

[rwthomas1]

That's a tough question.

Disregarding motorcycles, for four-wheeled vehicles - and especially for 18 wheeled vehicles - I would say that ABS is a safety-critical system. More importantly, the safety benefit arising from ABS doesn't extend only to the operator & passengers in the vehicle with the ABS system, it extends to other vehicles and pedestrians on the road who don't get hit by a vehicle that has gone out of control due to wheels locking up under hard braking.

Things get more troublesome & hard to justify - this is the "slippery slope" problem - when we look at other safety systems that have recently been mandated for new-build vehicles but have less of an impact on safety of others. I'm thinking of back-up cameras, TPMS, passenger airbag not active warning lights, stuff like that.

If we look at the progression of vehicle safety systems over the past 60 years (since Ralph Nader wrote his famous books), it's clear that the earliest innovations made the biggest difference - things like seat belts, disc brakes, 4 way flashers, front seat airbags, etc. Innovation continues, but the gains from new innovations become smaller & smaller as time goes on. It's a bit like software development... it was a big thing when Microsoft Word introduced a spelling checker with version 3.0, it's somewhat less exciting that last week's online update for Office 365 version 33.6 introduced punctuation checking for 4 dead languages that no-one has spoken in the past 100 years.

Overall, I think that maintaining functionality of vehicle safety systems, whether they are big ones like ABS or less significant ones like back-up cameras, functions as a proxy for how well a vehicle itself is maintained. Back when I was a teen, I could go to Farmer Jones used cars and pick up a schittebox for $25 to use for the next couple of weeks - when the gas tank got empty and the ashtray got full, one took the licence plates off and left it in a grocery store parking lot. No safety checks, no standards at all - if you could start it and put it in gear, it was roadworthy. Those days are now gone, but at the same time, mortality arising from traffic accidents is way, way down.

Michael

I think there is a fairly large gulf, actually an ocean of difference between a commercially operated 40ton transport vehicle and a privately owned 125cc motorcycle. However, legislatively and from an inspection standpoint, at least in my State, if I apply the rules for cars to bikes, they would be treated the same. If that isn't insanity, I'm not sure what is.

The law of diminishing returns is in full force here. Every new safety system added increases the cost of manufacturing, purchase, maintenance, and ultimately even the disposal of the vehicle.

Regarding the "proxy on how well a vehicle is maintained", I'm gonna call BS on that. We'll have to agree to disagree. Beyond my truck, and the known instance of a TPMS failure sending vehicles to the scrap heap, I have another for you. I had a 2006 Toyota Sienna Minivan, with 80K on the ODO. The airbag light came on. Again, it wasn't going to pass inspection like that. I considered the airbags very important. I was quoted $4400 to replace the airbags and wiring harness. At the time about 40% of the value of the vehicle. Who would spend that money? More importantly, why wasn't the system robust enough to last the life of the vehicle? Turns out I found a very easy and cheap fix that maintained full functionality of the vehicle. But I sold it less than a year later. Wasn't going to tempt fate twice.

Most of the crap that is failing now is electrical or electronic. Cheaply made, vehicle/model specific, and the first thing that is no longer available for most vehicles. This has little to do with safety. I'm not sure if a inoperative backup camera will be grounds for inspection failure in the future, but you can be sure they will be expensive to fix if available, and cheaply made by the lowest bidder. If these things are going to be "essential safety systems" then they should be robust, very robust. Yes, it will cost us all a lot more to buy a vehicle, but what price is your SAFETY worth?

BTW, Ralph Nader was entirely incorrect about the Corvair. Gov't investigation into the matter, and subsequent testing showed that the Corvair was no better or worse in its handling compared to its contemporaries. The testing was extensive, and completed in 1971, so too late to save the Corvair. Mr. Nader's entire premise was built on the Corvair being "Unsafe At Any Speed", which was and is a bald-faced lie. I think Mr. Nader deserved a solid punch in the mouth, but hey, that's me.

RT

 

[rwthomas1]

I have never heard of anyone hacking an OBD setup, but that doesnt mean you cant, just that I dont follow it much.

My understanding: OBD is only monitoring the specified parameters in the programming. As long as its all "in spec" then no CEL. But the operating parameters can be changed, and they are, regularly. Sometimes they are still within the manufacturers specified ranges, but not as tight as the original ranges. Other times they are way outside the accepted ranges, but testing and experience have shown them not to be detrimental, despite being not Gov't approved, this is a large grey area. Generally, these changes in programming go unnoticed as the CEL is not triggered, and the systems are all functioning as intended, but not at their original parameters. Then there are gross modifications where entire subroutines, usually emissions related, are removed from the engine programming. Engine appears normal, still no CEL, but if they are plugged in, there will be gaps in the information, and a fail.

This was all explained to me in layman's terms when I was searching for a solution to the issue with the truck. Maybe incorrect, but that's how it was explained.

RT