HISS issue. Confirm my diagnosis?

[Accidental Ironbutt]

2003 ST1300A. Just purchased with the fault, no history on the vehicle except that it has been sitting for 2+ years (with a presumably dead battery).

Symptoms:
HISS light turns solid when key turned + killswitch in run position, HISS light doesn't turn off after that.
FI light stays on.
Fuel-pump not running.
Starter will crank over the engine, but won't fire.

Steps taken so-far:
Battery fully charged and tested under load. Voltage is good, condition is good.
Neutral-switch works (verified by being able to turn it on/off by changing gears)
Kill-switch works (HISS light turns solid when switched to run)
Side-stand switch presumed working (Starter shouldn't run when in gear and side-stand out, right?)
I've felt and manipulated the wires from the HISS antenna to the main cable-harness to search for breaks. No change.

My diagnosis:
Faulty HISS antenna or ECU.

Now, what I haven't done is to try and "re-program" the keys. Can the ST1300 forget about its coded keys when left without power for an extended time?

 

[jfheath]

No.

Before even attempting to program the keys, you must have one that will start the engine. If you do not have one that will start the engine, then don't even attempt to reprogram the key.

If the bike is in neutral, (regardless of side stand and clutch) the fuel pump should whirr when the ignition is turned on and the HISS light should go out.

Are you sure that you have been given a key with a chip inside ? Were you not given two keys ?

Check the fuses. (I don't know which ones - just check them !!)

Check the earth connections to the frame - on the cross member under the rear of the tank in front of the seat. Check the wires attached to that. The early models had a recall for the abrasion of wires attached to that earth point. A break here can produce the same symtoms as not having the correct HISS key.

The reason for this is that for some circuits, the ECU 'turns on' the circuit by completing the path to earth. If the appropriate earth connection isn't sound, it cannot turns the circuit on.
This can be the case even if most other circuits are functioning normally.

If it is an ECU fault, the key and the ECU have to be obtained as a pair. You cannot program a key that has already been programmed to work with a different ECU. In that case, your 'duff' key still has a use - to be used as a pattern when cutting a new key.

 

[Accidental Ironbutt]

Are you sure that you have been given a key with a chip inside ? Were you not given two keys ?

I was given two keys. One that looks like everyone elses keys I've seen on the internet. The other one looks slightly different, so I assumed that it was chip-less.
I've tried both keys though, with identical results.

I haven't physically opened the key to look for the chip though. I don't really have a reason to suspect it wouldn't have a chip in it though. Still worth checking?

Check the earth connections to the frame

Ah, good call. I'll definitely check that out. Just to be clear, the connections are underneath the tank?

 

[jfheath]

Yes - they are at the rear of the tank, so you might just be able to see them with a mirror and a flashlight when you take the front seat off. There's an aluminium spar goes across, and the bolt and wires are on that. But you can see them more easily if you lift the tank and look underneath near where the fuel tank drain tubes pass.

Re the HISS - I have just een out to my bike to check beahviour. The neutral switch and the side stand dwitch make no difference to the recognition of a vaild HISS key. The kill swithc does make a difference though - it has to be set to run. I put mine in gear, put the side stand down, clutch lever was not pulled in, Kill switch = 'Run'. Put in the ignition key, turned it on. The fuel pump motor whirred (but it may not), then about 2 seconds later both the HISS light and the FI light went out - and the bike was ready to start up.

Of course, it wont then start until it is put into neutral. But until those lights have gone out, there's no point in pressing the starter button.

Regarding the keys - I have a Honda Key that looks like everyone else's on the internet. It doesn't have a chip in it though - I bought it like that with the intention of trying out a different source of chips, but neve did. Just a thought - if you someone in the chain of ownership was wanting to sell an HISS bike that didn't have a key, and wanted to make it look as though it had. You can tell by gently prising off the triangular cover on the side that looks like the cover is stuck down. It is - with some flexible adhesive, so once you get a fine driver blade in there it should gently lift out. A little heat might help. The chip will be stuck in with something like bathroom sealant.

The photo below shows the earth point on my previous 2006 model. The fuel tank is in the process of having a new elbow hose fitted, so the tank itself is empty. The tank is more or less in its correct position for its rear mounting point, (which is removed) but the elbow joint is not connected to the lower tank. I have 'folded it over' so that the top of the tank is resting where the seat would be - Just to take this photo. I knew it would come in handy one day!

 

[Accidental Ironbutt]

I have a Honda Key that looks like everyone else's on the internet. It doesn't have a chip in it though

Alright, good enough for me. I'll lift the little sticker thing and have a look.

The photo below shows the earth point on my previous 2006 model

Thank you so much. Definitely helps, so I know what I'm looking for.

New-years eve right now though, so I'll have a look at it all tomorrow

 

[Accidental Ironbutt]

Alright, got some garage-time in.

Removed all fuses, checked them, cleaned contacts with electronics cleaner.
Removed all relays, cleaned contacts
Removed ECU, cleaned contacts
Inspected the grounding-point under the tank, is tight, looks clean, no discoloration or fraying.

Issue remains though.

 

[jfheath]

Happy New Year.

Well - it needed to be done to eliminate the possibilities. Just the key to check that it actually has a chip in it.

Do you live within range of a powerful radio transmitter ? These things can stop the HISS system from working - but if it failed in a different location before you got it then that is less likely to be the fault.

Just did a quick search came up with this link. Not ST1300, but its Honda and HISS is HISS - so it is relevant. In the last couple of posts it sounds like they are talking about the multiway earth connector. The ST1300 has one somehwere behind the headlight. It often gets fried - sometimes as a result of people adding accessories and relying on existing earth connections to carry the extra current. It has loads of earth wires all going into one connector. There is a bar inside that connects them all together.

One of the circuit diagrams on here shows the connectors for the 03-07 Deleuxe version:



The power connector is shown as yellow. The earth is shown as pink. My Honda Workshop manula doesn't show either of these connectors in the circuit diagram, but they do exist.

Do you have a UK or European Honda Workshop Manual ?

The last section in there describes in some detail a series of diagnostic tests that you can carry out.

Briefly - you need a connector harness - you can make one - see my article here. (5) Article [13] - ST1300 - HISS (UK) and Chipped Ignition Key. | ST1300 Articles | ST-Owners.com
Note that you have to add a resistor of the correct size to the positive connection. So do everything that is on the second page of this document. ie make the harness, plug it in. Miss the bit where you have to start the engine - because you cannot.

Turn on the ignition with your chipped key.
The HISS light will come on
If it remains on after 10 seconds - then all is OK.
If it remains on for 10 seconds and then starts flashing, then it has recognised a fault. Observe the sequence of 4 flashes which will be long or short.
The sequence of 4 will repeat a few times, so you have chance to read it properly.

Short - Short - Long - Short = ECM data is abnormal. Faulty ECM.

Short - Short - Long - Long = Faulty receiver or wire harness. (That is the antenna surrounding the ignition key)

Long - Short - Short - Short = Identification codes disagree - Jamming by other transponder - another key or external signal

Long - Short -Long - Short = Secret codes disagree - Jamming by other transponder -another key or external signal


You may see this code - but shouldn't because it displays when registering a second key.
Short -Long - Short - Long = The key is already registered properly.

When done, turn off the ignition, remove the key, disconnect your test harness from the battery positive first to avoid accidental contact when separating the leads from the ignition pulse generator connector - then reconnect the connectors for the ignition pulse generator - rear right seat frame.


I've never had faults - I'm just reading from the manual. I hope that it helps.

 

[Accidental Ironbutt]

Thanks so much for helping me along with this.

I just pried off the label on the key, and there is silicone under there with something hard underneath it. So it appears to have a chip in it.
(The other key that doesn't look like a Honda key doesn't seem to open)

Unfortunately, I don't have a UK/AUS/European workshop manual. Just the US one that's floating around the internet. But that doesn't cover HISS for obvious reasons.

Yep, the whole "program keys with a special harness" thing is what I thought about in my earlier posts when I asked if the ECM could forget about its programmed keys by being disconnected from the battery for a long time.
Seems like this operation should work without having an already recognized key, right ?

I guess I'll remove the last piece of plastic on the bike to look for the multiway ground connector. Might as well.

At least the bike has been cleaned in places it probably never has been.

 

[jfheath]

The process of attaching the Ignition Pulse Generator connector to the 12v supply (through a 100 0hm resistor), and turning on the ignition key is exactly the same procedure used for programming additional keys as it is for fault diagnosis.

When I wrote my earlier post, I didn't know that and I warned against starting the procedure. That was me playing safe when I don't know something.

If it flashes - then you will be closer to finding out what the fault is. I doubt that doing this will make the key readable again - sort of kick start it into life ? - but I've been wrong before. I have two extra programmed keys that I keep with me in places where I am extremely unlikely to lose all three at the same time. I have never used them since I programmed them 9 years ago. Until now. I've just been out to check. They work just fine.

I am hoping that it is either the antenna or the wiring. If it is the key - then you haven't got a key that works and that means getting a new ECU and key set. If it is the ECU, then you have to get a new ECU and key set. You need a key that works in order to program additional keys. You cannot program a used key with a different ECU. Once attached to an ECU, that's it. They have to stay with that ECU.

You might get lucky with a breaker on ebay - providing that they guarantee that the ECU and keys are a matching set. There area couple on there now. For the UK models that I have just looked at, the same unit is used for the 2002, 2004 and 2006 models. UK or European Direct Import. The unit changed in 2008.

 

[TerryS]

You cannot program a new key unless the system has already recognized a known key.

My 2009 ST came with just one key so I purchased a new one, made up the programming harness and programmed the system to recognize the new key with no difficulty. A few months later I decided I wanted a third key and repeated the exercise but could not get it to work. The supplier of the new key was a local car security expert so I took the bike and key to him for some help, and he had some fancy electronic scanning gear that he used to record the signal from a recognised key and then clone that onto a new chip. My suggestion is to get some assistance from an expert before you cause any irrevocable damage. Honda does advise that if you lose all chipped keys, that you need to replace the ECU...

 

[SupraSabre]

Dang, you guys make me happy that we DO NOT have the HISS system, here in the states!


I just changed out my key/lock set on my 2004 and only have a copy of the key, but it starts anyway!

 

[RaYzerman]

The HISS system is very reliable and transparent. You'll hardly notice. However, I made sure I had extra keys programmed. Just need one working key as jheath mentions. I'd be checking for chafed/shorted/cut wire first.....
I don't necessarily recommend the keyless systems, which I understand was on the Connie14's. A few had problems with those as I recall.
The FJR was a little different, it came with a master red key, which you need to program any extra keys (two max, which your bike also came with). Lose that and you need a new ECU and red key.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

I just sent you a Honda HISS training manual. Hopefully it will be of some use to you.

 

[jfheath]

The problem is that @Accidental Ironbutt has a chipped key, but the ST does not appear to be recognising it. So the question is - is it the antenna (surrounding the ignition key slot), the cable connecting the antenna, the wires to antenna / ecu, or is the ecu broken. Hopefully we are trying to find cheaper answers than having to replace the entire ECU.
The info in the workshop manual is a bit easier to understand for the diagnosis section - so I reproduced the basic info from that. The HISS training manual will come in handy for the next stage though as it has some tests that can be carried out on the wiring.

 

[Accidental Ironbutt]

@jfheath regarding the wiring. I get the feeling that you've got access to a EUR workshop manual. Any chance you could look up what pins on the ECM are associated with the four wires going to the HISS antenna? That way I could at least put a multimeter on them to verify that part of the wiring.

 

[jfheath]

Additional stuff sent.

 

[Accidental Ironbutt]

Since this is now probably the most complete "HISS light constant on" thread on the internet, lets add a little info.

When you disconnect your bank angle sensor, the HISS light will not be constantly on. Fairly sure the FI light didn't come on either. Bike won't start without it though. Got real excited for a moment there.

Buzzed out the connections between the antenna connector and the ECM. All intact.

Last thing to test (I think) is the diagnostic cable and blink out some HISS codes.

At this point, I'm pretty sure its either the ECM or the antenna.

 

[jfheath]

The bank angle sensor relay turns off power to the fuel pump relay - the b/w lead. I was not aware when I did the testing for my article on this that it also cut out power to other components. But I was using the circuit diagram from the manual that I sent you, and that doesn't show the multiway connector that connects together a load of b/w wires. The Honda version shows the b/w wire as a 'bus' with spurs coming off it 'right left and centre'. Is it still possible that the multiway connector is still a factor ? I can't check this out 'til I get home tomorrow.

There is one circuit diagram on this site that shows these connectors. Not AnnasDad's excellent one. Another. The chap that posted it is no longer an active member, and I couldn't find it yesterday. I have a downloaded copy at home. Someone else may have the link to this series of schematics.??

 

[Accidental Ironbutt]

Alright, got it to flash out the HISS error-code.

Long, short, short, short - "Identification code is disagree"

( Testing with the key I think is chip-less gives me short, short, long, long - "Code signals cannot send or receive" )

According to the HISS section of the workshop manual, this is due to "jamming", which I very much doubt. No other keys within 100ft, no cellphone, no laptop.

Going by the code itself, this could be a case of swapping ECM, but not swapping to a chip that's "paired" with the ECM. I don't find it likely though, as there were no signs of anyone ever touched/cleaned/replaced the ECM when I took it out.

Since it's behaving _differently_ with a chipped and a presumed chipless key, I'm fairly sure the antenna works.

So, I guess it's time to decide if I want to go the route of getting a replacement ECM+keys off eBay or something, or getting the ECM repaired.
Found a place in the Netherlands that claims they can do it (Carmo Electronics). They can also program some spares for me for a reasonable sum of money

Right now, my gut feeling is going with the repair route, as they can (or at least claim to) be able to test everything there, guaranteeing me a working unit, instead of an more-or-less as-is unit from eBay.

Any thoughts?

 

[Accidental Ironbutt]

Is it still possible that the multiway connector is still a factor ?

I've looked all over the front-end of the bike, and I don't see anything that looks like a bus-bar, or multiway connector with a bunch of B/W wires going into it.
It's supposed to be behind the headlights, right?

Don't really see how I could miss it though. The only plastic left on the bike is the gauge-cluster...