HP4M - will it cause a problem?

[STeveMcD]

I found this on the GL1800riders forum. I can’t vouch for it, because I don’t have the Honda “common service manual” but it seems more plausible than “typo.”

It still doesn’t mean 20 ft/lbs is right. I’m sticking with hand tight + a tiny nudge

“When I first saw that torque spec, I thought it had to be a typo. So I asked Honda's tech folks about it and was assured that it was correct. Seems strange, because the filter base and the crankcase surface are the same as on the 1500, and that filter specs at 7 ft. lbs. Maybe the 1800 runs higher oil pressure than the 1500 - couldn't say.

Here's what I think happened. It's not unusual for parts or specs to change during a model run, while the service manual text never gets updated. The Honda Common Service Manual explains that Honda uses two types of "small filters;" one without graduations at the base that gets torqued to 7 ft. lbs, and another WITH 12 graduations marked along the filter base - that one specs at 19 ft. lbs. (OR fully hand tightened plus one graduation - 1/12th of a turn). It's possible that the 1800 originally was designed for the graduated filter. But there have been at least 2 changes to the filter spec since the bike was released, and I don't believe the current filter # has any graduations along the base. I agree that 19 ft. lbs seems tight enough to gouge the crankcase surface with the filter base. And if you're using an aftermarket filter with the normal square-section O ring, I'd definitely not apply 19 ft. lbs to it. Just the normal spin-on till the gasket contacts the engine, then another 3/4 to 1 turn. 1/4 turn after gasket contact isn't going to provide nearly enough gasket compression to prevent loosening or for proper sealing with high oil pressure. So I'd be safety wiring mine too, if I'd decided for some reason to only tighten to 1/4 turn. But as Bill O'Reilly would say, that's ridiculous.”

 

[dduelin]

I think @dduelin pointed out that said jug's picture does not have the API designation that Honda wants - SE, SF or higher. The Shell juice has a bunch of CK, J,I,and H API's. The only point here is that this oil, which is obviously good stuff, is not what Mother Honda recommends. Av gas is good fuel, as is Jet fuel (kerosene like), but they are not what Ford recommends in their cars (nor Ferrari or Lambo). Maybe we should all just ask Norally what she finds and uses in the hinterlands.

Remember that test from 7th grade with instructions to read all 25 questions thoroughly then just sign your name and sit quietly until time is called? The test was to see who can read and follow instructions and you passed.

The owner and service manual sets 3 requirements and JASO MA is 1 of them.

People are free to use whatever oil they want but if it doesn’t meet instructions or certifications they can’t say it meets them.

 

[red one]

And do yourself a favor. When you tighten your oil drain bolt back up with your new crush washer on it YOU DON'T Need a Torque wrench. Tighten it until its tight and not leaking and you will be good to go. I had some Idiot torque my drain bolt down with a torque wrench and had to take it back and have them loosen it when my car was new. All you need to do is crush the washer and it will never leak. The oil change boy say's he goes by the manual but the washer was deformed by being overtightened.

 

[Larry Fine]

The JASO rating reminds me of the THX certification that some home-theater equipment earned years ago.

Makers of many components claimed that their products were capable of meeting the THX specs, but decided not to spend the money to actually have the certification done, and kept the cost lower to the consumer.

So, is there a cost to earning a JASO certification that is saved by claiming to meet the specs without the badge?

 

[Andrew Shadow]

The owner and service manual sets 3 requirements and JASO MA is 1 of them.

Actually, in the example given, there are four requirements stipulated.
API SE/SF or higher.
JASO 4T
JASO MA
Viscosity SAE 10W40.

4T is a JASO oil classification as well. It sets different requirements for motorcycle four stroke engine oil than those accepted for automobile 4 stroke engine oil. This is separate from the MA classification and is not related to the wet clutch application, but rather how the oil reacts to the engine operating environment.

My guess is that in the real world it is probably a rather irrelevant requirement if a JASO MA certified engine oil is being used. I suspect that any engine oil that does not meet the 4T threshold would not be granted the MA certification by JASO either, but I don't know that to be fact. I also suspect that engine oils have improved so much that the reasons that JASO developed the 4T standard in the first place are no longer an issue with automobile oils either, but again, I don't know that to be fact.

 

[Upt' North]

7 ft/lb for the ST11 filter in the service manual, but I don't torque it. I'd guess a half to three quarter turn once seated with an oiled seal. But I think after fitting hundreds of the things it's just a feel thing.
Now call me strange........but why don't we just use motorcycle oil .
Upt'North.

 

[Mophead]

I gave up on oil threads long ago. Just go to Honda dealer, buy GN4, pour into bike, forget the rest. It's not that hard.

 

[STeveMcD]

More than I ever need to know about JASO

http://www.mototribology.com/articles/jaso-explained-part-1/

 

[Sadlsor]

I gave up on oil threads long ago. Just go to Honda dealer, buy GN4, pour into bike, forget the rest. It's not that hard.

Yeah, right.
What are you, crazy?
So, what would there be to discuss, without oil threads?
It would be rather droll around here, if we were relegated to quilting or hairstyles, y'know!
(For those of you just waking up, this is sarcasm at play.)

 

[Igofar]

I gave up on oil threads long ago. Just go to Honda dealer, buy GN4, pour into bike, forget the rest. It's not that hard.

Outstanding advice! We need to keep the Honda shops open and making money, selling re-branded, minimum required spec oil, that does not even have the API certification on it, that changes venders about every six months, and costs more than it’s worth.
More sarcasm….

 

[Igofar]

The thread from the gold wing forum flagged for me when he asked a Honda tech a question and assumed his response would be correct
I was watching a Honda tech working on a bike with his 1/2 drive impact, he was working on clutch plates, I assumed he was removing stuff, but nope, he was screwing stuff back together etc. when he caught me glancing at the pressure he was using, he laughed and said, that’s what civilians don’t understand about torque values in the service manual, he said they are the MINIMUM settings, so all the techs at that shop set everything at 90 psi to cover anything they work on!
Some of these young wyotech kids scare the bejesus out of me.

 

[Ron]

The thread from the gold wing forum flagged for me when he asked a Honda tech a question and assumed his response would be correct
I was watching a Honda tech working on a bike with his 1/2 drive impact, he was working on clutch plates, I assumed he was removing stuff, but nope, he was screwing stuff back together etc. when he caught me glancing at the pressure he was using, he laughed and said, that’s what civilians don’t understand about torque values in the service manual, he said they are the MINIMUM settings, so all the techs at that shop set everything at 90 psi to cover anything they work on!
Some of these young wyotech kids scare the bejesus out of me.

 

[dduelin]

Outstanding advice! We need to keep the Honda shops open and making money, selling re-branded, minimum required spec oil, that does not even have the API certification on it, that changes venders about every six months, and costs more than it’s worth.
More sarcasm….

This is simply not true. Honda Motor Company's oldest trading partner is Idemitsu Oil and the relationship is over 70 years old, dating to when Honda Motor Company had 1 employee. In various markets around the globe Honda's partner Idemitsu in agreement with Honda may choose companies to blend, bottle, or distribute Honda branded oils and other products that meet rigid specifications set by Honda engineers and chemists. In the USA Honda's partner is Conoco Phillips and has been for many years. You might want to read the label of this bottle to see it's API rating that does in fact appear.

 

[Igofar]

And where do you see this on that label?
I must be missing it.

 

[Paul]

I've been looking at motorcycle oil on Amazon. The factory oils from Honda, Yamaha and Kawasaki at least, do not use the API donut. The service ratings are listed elsewhere on the label.

 

[dduelin]

And where do you see this on that label?
I must be missing it.

Yes you are.

 

[Igofar]

That is because those companies are re-branding someone else’s product.
Honda has a cute little square saying some to the effect of this oil meets OUR standards, which may or may not meet the API standards etc.

 

[dduelin]

That is because those companies are re-branding someone else’s product.
Honda has a cute little square saying some to the effect of this oil meets OUR standards, which may or may not meet the API standards etc.

Too much.

As a hint it’s written in plain English.

In two places.

 

[docw1]

And then there's this:

Motorbike MoS2 Shooter

Reduces friction and wear, thus reducing oil and fuel consumption. Increases the engine's running smoothness and reduces malfunctions.

products.liqui-moly.com

A Moly oil additive that they say is safe for wet clutches.

 

[Igofar]

Yes you are.

No I’m not, they are doing the SHELL thing by implying it meets the standards, but it was not tested so they can’t use the American patroleum institute donut, nice try keep playing.