Is there a problem with Avon Storm II rear tires?

[sennister]

snip..

So, to my point, tire manufacturers go to the trouble to make a tire in a size like the 170/60R17 that - to my knowledge - only fits the ST13. Then they say they don't recommend using it on that model. Am I missing something here?

I kind of thought the same thing. But it is hard to say if another bike out there does or doesn't use that size tire. Their web site has you enter the make model and year of your bike and they return what tires fit. If you do that the result is that they do not make a tire for the ST1300. They don't have a reverse search to ask what bikes a tire of a certain size and model it does fit.

 

[Throttlejockey]

So, to my point, tire manufacturers go to the trouble to make a tire in a size like the 170/60R17 that - to my knowledge - only fits the ST13. Then they say they don't recommend using it on that model. Am I missing something here?

Quite a few bikes use that tire size apparently. I know the 99 ZRX1100 does by a quick Google search.

 

[bdalameda]

It is my understanding that the reason that Avon does not recommend the Ultra on the St1300 is that the ST1300 wobble/weave issue created quite a stir a while back and as is with most liability concerns they did not want their tire asscociated with this problem. Basically when there is a perceived problem everyone and their uncle gets sued and Avon is trying to limit their liability exposure by not having their tire on a model with a known or perceived problem in case there is an accident and then they would get drawn into the litigation.

 

[ardykay54]

I just bought a set of Shinko Verge 011 tires for my ST1300. After reading about the Avons and the Dunlops am I nuts for trying these? Russ.

 

[STPaulK]

It is my understanding that the reason that Avon does not recommend the Ultra on the St1300 is that the ST1300 wobble/weave issue created quite a stir a while back and as is with most liability concerns they did not want their tire asscociated with this problem. Basically when there is a perceived problem everyone and their uncle gets sued and Avon is trying to limit their liability exposure by not having their tire on a model with a known or perceived problem in case there is an accident and then they would get drawn into the litigation.

I've heard that same story but you have to remember Bridgestone's approved tire, 020F (specifically by Honda) has a reinforced sidewall, while the Avon probably does not. I could believe a softer sidewall might contribute to weave and I could understand why Avon might not want to be involved.

BTW, the sidewall construction for the 020F was discussed here.

https://www.st-owners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=221340&postcount=9

 

[bdalameda]

I've heard that same story but you have to remember Bridgestone's approved tire, 020F (specifically by Honda) has a reinforced sidewall, while the Avon probably does not. I could believe a softer sidewall might contribute to weave and I could understand why Avon might not want to be involved.

BTW, the sidewall construction for the 020F was discussed here.

https://www.st-owners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=221340&postcount=9

Yes the BT020 has a stiff sidewall - One of my favorite tires though, dependable with confident handling characteristics and pretty decent wear . I wish I could still get them in the radial version for the ST1100 as I am just using up my last BT020 160/70 for the St1100 - none to be had anywhere. There is still a bias made though.

Dan

 

[Scooter]

So, to my point, tire manufacturers go to the trouble to make a tire in a size like the 170/60R17 that - to my knowledge - only fits the ST13. Then they say they don't recommend using it on that model. Am I missing something here?

I was wondering about this so I did a little digging around. If you go to this page and then click on the Fitment tab you will get a list of seven bike manufacturers who are using the 170/60ZR17 size. Expanding the list on each manufacturer will show quite a few different models, many have been around awhile. There might be more out there but I wasn't going to waste anymore time looking...

 

[Hound]

Sorry Fred (and Joe), I misunderstood the focus of the comment!

I'll go back in my kennel now.

 

[barto]

I've only had my ST1100 since May of this year. It is in fact the first bike I've ever owned. Happily ridden it over 7,000 miles in that time. But not always happily "attired" (sorry, pun intended).

Tires on it were pretty worn when I bought it (don't even recall what they were) so I had them replaced with Bridgestone Exedras. Two front tires in a row produced a significant "bounce" that the nearest dealer said was either not really a problem!?! or just a problem that any tire could have and should be expected!?! Another dealer resolved the bounce with a Pirelli Speed Demon front tire which seems fine but after less than 7,000 miles has notable cupping.

The rear was just replaced with a Metzler Z6 Interact which I love. However, I don't even know if that's an approved tire for the ST1100. I have ordered a Z6 for the front but it's on back order until 11/5 (moved back two weeks in a row).

My only real point in this ramble is the prevalance of tire related issues pertaining to both the ST1100 and 1300's. Is this a problem that's unique to the ST family or do most / all motorcycles have this many issues, questions and concerns about choosing a tire?

PS: Was all ready to have Storm II's mounted by the dealer but went with the Metzler's because he was aware of issues with front end wobble related to the Storm II's on the ST's.

 

[sennister]

I think every bike club like this is going to have people that like one tire over others like this. There are going to be some tires better than others. If you look at this thread it was mentioned that other forums, FJR and BMW I think, where people had similar failures with the Avon Storm II. However it is interesting that the 1100 hasn't seen the failures. Though the head shake from the Storm I seems to still be there with the Storm II. Though it was never anything I worried about. It really isn't that bad. Really little more than a vibration that I feel as I coast through 45-40 MPH range. It is odd that so many of us all seem to see the same shake starting at 45 and ending in the 40-35 MPH range.

 

[dduelin]

Seems like a lot of people have already made their mind up that a recent accident was caused by the failure of a Avon Storm 2.

The fact is that we do not know the cause of the accident. The rider stated the rear wheel locked up instantly at 70 mph. That description does not sound like a tire failure but a tire might be deflated and shredded in the chain of events that follow lockup or the tire may have been damaged in the cross country trip that put on the tire's mileage and let go soon after locking up. We may never know.

There have been instances of rear wheel lockup that were brake related or that happened soon after the rear wheel was removed and remounted.

 

[Raven]

Clarification on my Avon delam....

I was out at the crash site on Wednesday. The first mark on the road corresponded with the first pieces of debris from the rear of the bike. It appears that the tire delaminated as opposed to the tire shredding after deflation.

The tire DID NOT have Ride-On in it b/c I got the tire whilst in Florida (as opposed to home) and did not have access to Ride-On at the time.

The tire was properly inflated as of that morning and I had traveled ~500 miles up to the failure on that day. The tire was properly inflated the day before as well and went 1054 miles that day.

The tire had just shy of ~1875 miles on it.

The tire was on the bike 11 days.

I had zero problems with the original Storm tires and really liked them. The Storm Ultra II's are a different beast. Regardless of the tears or flats or failure - my experience of the Ultra II's was they did not wear as evenly or as consistently as the original Storms and did not feel as planted.

As far as I know, no tire company "recommends" or "opposes" a tire. They have fitment guides and speed and weight ratings but no where have I seen Avon (or anyone else) "recommend" a particular tire. No where have I seen Avon (or anyone else) specifically "oppose" a particular tire, either. Avon does market the Storm as a "sport touring" tire and there are no warnings (that I have seen) on either their site or their retailer's sites advising against using these tires. If anyone has access to Avon documentation that specifically states against fitment, I'd like to see it because, at the very least, that needs to be writ large.

For me, the real issue is concern regarding a manufacturing defect that could affect other riders out there. I do believe that there is a problem with the Storm II Ultras that needs to be addressed, regardless of fitment.

 

[bdalameda]

Approved or not the tire should not fail as it did if the design load etc. is not exceeded. There is nothing unique about the ST1300 that would cause the tire to de-laminate. The St1300 in no way caused the tire to exceed its design capability. It could be argued that the tire design could effect handling characteristics but load capacities etc. should not have been exceeded by using it on the ST1300 as the tire is rated correctly for the St1300. The argument about the tire not being approved to run it on the ST1300 in no way is related to the failure of the tire if the design load was not exceeded. The only arguments that can be made are if inflation pressures were too low or damage from road debris or damage caused from stressing the tire when being mounted.

 

[HondaDave]

I noticed on Avon's website that they do not list a tire for the ST1300. I wonder why? I am sure Avon has a reason. I won't be using these tires, but if I were it would be nice to hear from the manufacturer why they don't list a tire for this bike.

This post is not to indicate that I am in disagreement with any other post or opinion on this thread. What happened to Raven is horrible. I just took a look on Avon's website to check it out. Hmmm???

 

[barto]

I noticed on Avon's website that they do not list a tire for the ST1300. I wonder why?

This is from Metzeler's website. Doesn't inspire a lot of confidence does it?

Select a vehicle and the procedure will show you Metzeler Tyres that best match your needs.


Warning
By using this procedure you preliminary undertake and accept that Pirelli Tyre S.p.A. can not be considered responsible for any error or omission, nor can be considered responsible for any damage subsequent to the choice of a suggested tyre. In particular, we wish to highlight that, because of specific regulations in the various countries or of possible amendments to technical or legal prescriptions, it is necessary that you, before fitting the suggested tyres, make sure that the relevant fitting is allowed by the technical characteristics of the Motorcycle, by the Motorcycle manufactureres indications and in compliance with the relevant homologations. Accordingly, you shall carry out at your own responsibility whatever action is necessary in order to verify if any technical reason or prescription of law or of the Motorcycle manufacturer prevent the fitting of the suggested tyres. Moreover, you fully discharge Pirelli from any liability whatsoever in relation to, or as a consequence of, claims by yourselves and/or any third party for possible damages subsequent to the fitting of tyres not allowed.

I always try to comply with the relevant homologations. I really do...

So apparently it is up to the individual rider to determine if a tire is suitable for a given bike.


PS: Mezteler lists NO approved tire for the ST1100 (I just mounted a Z6 Interact Rear tire two weeks ago)
Metzeler does list the "Roadtec Z6" as approved for the ST1300

 

[TimM]

First, I have talked with Avon and they do not recommend the Storm II Ultras for the ST1300: they go further and say they do not have ANY tire for the ST1300. Send me a PM and I'll forward the email.

Bridgestone and Dunlop offer tires that ARE recommended for the ST1300. In Bridgestone's case, who I have talked with to get written recommendations, its the BT-020F series and the BT-023 series. I haven't approached Dunlop, but we know the 220's are OEM and the Roadsmart's are listed in their web-based fitment guide.

The reason for this "recommendation" - and let's be clear I'm making an educated guess here -- is the bike's weight and horsepower and what they do to tires in acceleration and braking. One notable feature of all recommended tires is a continuous aramid belt that goes around the circumference of the tire: Bridgestone calls it an MSBELT and Dunlop call it JLB (Jointless Band). What does a belt like this do? Distributes loads around the entire tire circumference, heating the entire tire rather than just the contact patch.

Again - this is educated guesswork - ymmv.

Links:

BT-023 Build

www.dunlopmotorcycle.com Q2_press_kit.pdf

 

[TimM]

snip...
So apparently it is up to the individual rider to determine if a tire is suitable for a given bike.
...snip

I don't read it that way: What I read is that Pirelli sells tires, if you buy one of theirs and fit it to your bike, they aren't responsible for what happens next.

I think part of the problem is after market mods. Think about the guy that has a stock ST and runs OEM tires recommended by Honda, generally everything works as expected. Then comes the guy that adds a turbo and runs the OEM tires and sues Honda and Dunlop -- or, the more likely case of a guy that swaps the stock bars for monkey bars then loses it in a corner, crashes and blames the bike or tires. Both Honda and Dunlop are going to be disgruntled and post essentially what Pirelli has, but Honda already has the language in the user manual. So the tire company has to add the legalese elsewhere.


The other side of the conversation is tire specs in general. If I buy a load rated tire that meets the OEM recommendation, I should be okay (as the Avon's appear to be reading only the published numbers); but there are tire details beyond the official rating system that affects how tires really perform. And this is where problems creep in.

 

[barto]

it is necessary that you, before fitting the suggested tyres, make sure that the relevant fitting is allowed by the technical characteristics of the Motorcycle

Hard to read it any other way...but you're right too. No company can foresee all the variables that affect how their products are used. Every company out there at least tries to limit their liability with disclaimers much like the one above.

 

[Raven]

There have been instances of rear wheel lockup that were brake related or that happened soon after the rear wheel was removed and remounted.

This was not a rear brake lock up. I did check at the wrecking yard and the rear brake mounting bracket was where it was supposed to be and the brakes where not locked.

For clarification - Avon DID list the Pan European on the original Storms fitment guides. So to say that the original Storms where not "approved" for the ST1300 is not entirely accurate.

Tim, I appreciate your conversations with your Avon rep and would definitely like any written documentation you have received from them in this matter. I also had conversations with Avon, when the original Storms first came out, and received different information from them regarding fitment, at that time the information I was given was that they were approved for the Pan in Europe but that, due to the small market share for the ST, in the US it wasn't economically feasible to jump through the hoops for here. Avon NA even sent me a set of the original Storms for my ST1300 when I was working for Lee so their stance on the Storms and ST is murky at best.

Although it is likely a technicality, if anyone has PUBLISHED documentation from Avon regarding NOT fitting these tires that would be useful information. To my knowledge there has not been anything publicly published by Avon advising against fitment. On Avon's current website, they have their product page with the technical specs - sizes, ratings, dimension, etc. but I do not see anything advising against fitment.

Personally, we can argue all day as to whether or not Avon bears some level of liability and it's nothing more than moving wind. Product liability is incredibly complicated and I have no illusion that anything would come of pursuing that avenue, that really isn't the point.

The point is, there is no good reason for a new motorcycle tire of the proper weight, speed, and size requirements to look like a retread and this tire came apart like a retread. Personally, I'm suspect of the multi-compound technology, not only Avon's but other manufacturers as well, and am concerned that the bonding of the various compounds is not yet a perfected process. If this is the case, then it is highly likely that, even a tire listed for a specific bike could experience catastrophic failure due to a manufacturing issue. Does Avon have a manufacturing issue? I think they do when it comes to the multi-compound process.

 

[BigTom]

Well, I waited as long as I could.

As background, I have used 13 STorms (8 rear, 5 front) on an ST1100. I like them a lot.
My Connie had 021s from the factory and I torched them in less than 5000 miles. They were scary when I took them off.
I have 8500 miles on the STorm II rear on the Connie, it has lived it's useful life, local service only. I like how the II's feel, just fine.
The Connie IS on the Avon approved list. It's not quite as heavy as the ST, has more HP and a larger tire (190/70 ZR17) Z rating means 140mph plus.

Near as I can tell on COG and Connie Owners, there has been two suspect failures. Neither was anywhere near as dramatic as Raven's. Of course, that dramatic or worse would cause serious injury or death, WHICH WOULD MEAN NO REPORT.

So. Where do I go from here? I have a pair of IIs in the shed to put on before SeaSToc, and I think I'll do so. I am not flying in the face of anything here, I have an approved tire, on a much wider rim (6.00" rear) AND TIRE PRESSURE MONITORING. I would hope that would give me a few seconds of warning...I strongly suspect that Raven's delam was exacerbated by heat. That the tire actually lost air a short while before it failed.

That should not be taken as an excuse for Avon, that (and others) are just without excuse. I am pretty sure I have bought my last Avon tire, the only question is have I run my last Avon?

How much are the PR 2's, Tim?