Is there a problem with Avon Storm II rear tires?

[sennister]

Like Raven mentioned it could be an issue with dual compound tires. Does that mean I am going to write them off. Nope. The PR2 is a dual compound tire last I checked and that is one of the tires that seems to get recommended the most around here. So maybe it is a case where tire companies are trying to keep up with the competition and don't have the experience with making dual compound tires yet.

Another thing to keep in the back of your mind is the load rating. So if a tire manufacturer builds a tire for the ST1300 and uses the max weight rating that Honda states is the max weight for the bike (I'm talking wet weight + rider + gear or GVWR), how many of us exceed that? I have seen different figures on how much stuff (by weight) we can have on this bike and if you ask me Honda didn't give us much room to have stuff. The numbers I have seen are somewhere in the 350-400lbs range. Well at 225 without my gear and nothing in any of the saddle bags or top box (heck without the top box) that isn't leaving all that much. I know for a fact that I have had my 1300 overloaded and that is without a passenger. I also don't pull a trailer which by the way also adds to the GVWR. I really don't think that Japanese understand how big we are and this adds to the problem. I just went in for a physical, because I am 6'4" my 225 lbs doesn't even put me in a weight range where the Dr is concerned that maybe I should go on a diet. Heck if I keep hanging out with you guys and eating all this pie I'll be 250 in no time. I am not saying Raven's bike was overloaded at all but it is something that is easy to do when you are packing a bike for long trips. Like I said I have done it when I have only gone somewhere for the weekend.

As for Avon's stance on the ST1300. I was at the Motorcycle show when it was here in Minneapolis 2 years ago and I spoke to one of these Avon Reps asking why the Storm wasn't approved for the 1300 and if he thought the would come out with one. He told me (verbally) that the Avon Storm was approved for the ST1300. This was before the Storm II was out. I questioned this and he said he was sure of it. I still wouldn't go on his word.

 

[sirepair]

IIRC tires have a serial/batch number stamped on them. I think it might be useful to track serial/batch numbers of the failed tires. I have not examined my Storm II's to note the numbers, but will. Guess I'll start documenting this in my maintenance log.

Any information we can gather can be helpful to us all...

 

[GAHellinger]

IMy experience with Avon Storm and Storm II Ultra tires on an ST1100 is exemplary. At present I am running a Storm front tire with 16k+ miles on it, and a Storm II Ultra rear with 11k+ miles of wear. The Avons have great wet grip. The front head shake is annoying but not an issue as I keep my hands on the bars. If there is an issue with these tires, I hope Avon acknowledges the problem and addresses it forthwith.

 

[dduelin]

This was not a rear brake lock up. I did check at the wrecking yard and the rear brake mounting bracket was where it was supposed to be and the brakes where not locked.

I was going on the your post of 11/03/10:

"Absolutely NO WARNING, no squishy feel, no odd handling, nothing. One minute it's running down the road, next instant totally locked up and fishtailing."

 

[Throttlejockey]

As for Avon's stance on the ST1300. I was at the Motorcycle show when it was here in Minneapolis 2 years ago and I spoke to one of these Avon Reps asking why the Storm wasn't approved for the 1300 and if he thought the would come out with one. He told me (verbally) that the Avon Storm was approved for the ST1300. This was before the Storm II was out. I questioned this and he said he was sure of it. I still wouldn't go on his word.

I wouldn't go by anything I was told at any of the motorcycle shows. I had a Honda rep at the NY show this year tell me they weren't making ST1300's, that's why they didn't have one there.:

 

[sennister]

I wouldn't go by anything I was told at any of the motorcycle shows. I had a Honda rep at the NY show this year tell me they weren't making ST1300's, that's why they didn't have one there.:

Yeah, I agree with that, like I said I won't run them on my 1300 until they have one listed on their website. I guess my point is that we have been getting mixed messages from Avon. Hey they are not the only company. Microsoft is just as bad. If I am dealing with a licensing issue, at the enterprise level is it murky at best, I just keep asking reps until I get the answer I want and have them document that answer which I file away should we ever get audited.

 

[ChucksKLRST]

Just to recite a tire story of mine that happened in the vicinity of Artesia NM. Years ago when I lived in WF, Texas I was on my way to Deming NM BBQ. Was travailing west on 82. There are alot of oil field and jack pumps and drilling rigs in and around Artesia. Lots of associated truck/equipment travel along those roads. I also personally have witness alot of debris on the roads as I approached Artesia.

I had been traveling in triple digits along 82 and slowed down on the approach to Artesia, as I entered the town I came to the first stop light, when I noticed a stiffness in the steering of my ST1100. At the light and now stopped I looked down and my front tire was almost flat. I had run over some debris on the approach to Artesia. Found a puncture in the tire and had a local auto tire shop put a plug in to the front tire and then rode to Roswell Honda dealer to buy a new front tire. I am not going to speculate on the hows and whys of Ravens tire failure however I do know the roads in that part of the world do have alot of FOD on them.

 

[STPaulK]

So maybe it is a case where tire companies are trying to keep up with the competition and don't have the experience with making dual compound tires yet.

Dual compound tires have been around for years. I'd be surprised if Avon just started making them

 

[Larry Ramel]

Well, I waited as long as I could.

As background, I have used 13 STorms (8 rear, 5 front) on an ST1100. I like them a lot.
My Connie had 021s from the factory and I torched them in less than 5000 miles. They were scary when I took them off.
I have 8500 miles on the STorm II rear on the Connie, it has lived it's useful life, local service only. I like how the II's feel, just fine.
The Connie IS on the Avon approved list. It's not quite as heavy as the ST, has more HP and a larger tire (190/70 ZR17) Z rating means 140mph plus.

Near as I can tell on COG and Connie Owners, there has been two suspect failures. Neither was anywhere near as dramatic as Raven's. Of course, that dramatic or worse would cause serious injury or death, WHICH WOULD MEAN NO REPORT.

So. Where do I go from here? I have a pair of IIs in the shed to put on before SeaSToc, and I think I'll do so. I am not flying in the face of anything here, I have an approved tire, on a much wider rim (6.00" rear) AND TIRE PRESSURE MONITORING. I would hope that would give me a few seconds of warning...I strongly suspect that Raven's delam was exacerbated by heat. That the tire actually lost air a short while before it failed.

That should not be taken as an excuse for Avon, that (and others) are just without excuse. I am pretty sure I have bought my last Avon tire, the only question is have I run my last Avon?

How much are the PR 2's, Tim?

The original Storms in the 170/60/17 for the ST1300 only had a one ply sidewalls. The 160/70/17 for the 1100 had multi plys like other brands. I don`t have the Ultra 170/60/17 but I bet if Raven checks they are still one ply sidewalls. There were problems with The original Storms also for the ST1300. See my posts and photos starting 6-13-09. Also see KTMRACERS post and pictures on 8-14-07. There appears to have been quality issues for some time.

 

[STPaulK]

Larry, why not link your posts here? Beats having us go hunt for them.

 

[Mellow]

Larry, why not link your posts here? Beats having us go hunt for them.

I updated it ...

Looks like the original pics are corrupted but thumbnails were retained...

 

[Larry Ramel]

I updated it ...

Looks like the original pics are corrupted but thumbnails were retained...

Thanks for the help Joe.

 

[Raven]

Once again, I'll point out that the original Storms had the Pan on the fitment guides. I don't know if the Pan is in the Ultra II fitment guides. To my knowledge, the only difference between the US model ST and the European model ST is the badging and the headlight aim. To my knowledge there is no difference between the US and European Storm.

I think we need to be careful regarding saying the tire is or isn't recommended. Nowhere in any published Avon materials have I found them specifically advising against using this tire on the ST or the Pan. Their reps also do not seem clear on the issue - Tim's rep has told him one thing, other reps have told others something else.

Realistically, most people don't buy motorcycle tires by plugging their make and model into a website, most people buy tires by plugging the size and rating into a website or doing a google search for their size and ratings or having their dealer do that - in which case the Storm Ultra II comes up as a possibility and folks will buy it. Heck, that's how I found the original Storms on the SWMoto website.

I know we have a lot of ST riders on this forum but we only have a very small percentage of all the ST riders out there. If Avon advises against using this tire for the ST1300, then that needs to be published in such a way that there is no doubt or ambiguity and dealers need to be notified of that fact. Currently that is not the case and that is an issue.

 

[longdog_cymru]

Once again, I'll point out that the original Storms had the Pan on the fitment guides. I don't know if the Pan is in the Ultra II fitment guides. To my knowledge, the only difference between the US model ST and the European model ST is the badging and the headlight aim. To my knowledge there is no difference between the US and European Storm.

I think we need to be careful regarding saying the tire is or isn't recommended. Nowhere in any published Avon materials have I found them specifically advising against using this tire on the ST or the Pan. Their reps also do not seem clear on the issue - Tim's rep has told him one thing, other reps have told others something else.

Realistically, most people don't buy motorcycle tires by plugging their make and model into a website, most people buy tires by plugging the size and rating into a website or doing a google search for their size and ratings or having their dealer do that - in which case the Storm Ultra II comes up as a possibility and folks will buy it. Heck, that's how I found the original Storms on the SWMoto website.

I know we have a lot of ST riders on this forum but we only have a very small percentage of all the ST riders out there. If Avon advises against using this tire for the ST1300, then that needs to be published in such a way that there is no doubt or ambiguity and dealers need to be notified of that fact. Currently that is not the case and that is an issue.

I agree with you 100% Raven. This is the case with many tyre manufacturers. I have attended a seminar with Avon technicians and with Michelin technicians. The Avon guys didn't say their tyres couldn't be used on the ST1300. On the other hand, the Michelin technicians stated unambiguously that their Pilot Road 2CT tyres could be used on the ST1300.

Thanks for this calm and well thought out reply Raven written with the benefit of an aweful experience.

 

[Larry Ramel]

Once again, I'll point out that the original Storms had the Pan on the fitment guides. I don't know if the Pan is in the Ultra II fitment guides. To my knowledge, the only difference between the US model ST and the European model ST is the badging and the headlight aim. To my knowledge there is no difference between the US and European Storm.

I think we need to be careful regarding saying the tire is or isn't recommended. Nowhere in any published Avon materials have I found them specifically advising against using this tire on the ST or the Pan. Their reps also do not seem clear on the issue - Tim's rep has told him one thing, other reps have told others something else.

Realistically, most people don't buy motorcycle tires by plugging their make and model into a website, most people buy tires by plugging the size and rating into a website or doing a google search for their size and ratings or having their dealer do that - in which case the Storm Ultra II comes up as a possibility and folks will buy it. Heck, that's how I found the original Storms on the SWMoto website.

I know we have a lot of ST riders on this forum but we only have a very small percentage of all the ST riders out there. If Avon advises against using this tire for the ST1300, then that needs to be published in such a way that there is no doubt or ambiguity and dealers need to be notified of that fact. Currently that is not the case and that is an issue.

I agree!!

 

[Raven]

Okay, VMAR (Vehicle Mechanical and Accident Reconstruction) called today and took a look at some of the photos from the delamination I'd sent. They were pretty shocked to see a motorcycle tire do what this one did and seemed to think it may be worth pursuing. If I decide to proceed, I'll have to move the bike from Roswell to Phoenix and am looking at about $2K for the investigation.

I've checked with GEICO and they don't seem interested in the tire angle so if I do decide to pursue an investigation, it's on my dime. Plus, I'll have to buy the salvage back from GEICO (once they decide on a payout) so it will definitely mean a delay for me in replacing my ride.

A couple of folks have contacted me in the other thread as well as privately encouraging the investigation and offering to throw some $ in the kitty specifically for the purpose of investigation. It is something I'm considering.

A lot will depend on what GEICO decides regarding payout and salvage value and whether or not I can afford to be bikeless (the ST is my main transport). I'll keep y'all informed as to what transpires over the next few days.

 

[MorleyJC]

Wow- I just happened to check the tire section of the forum right before deciding to purchase another Avon Storm 2 rear for my ST. Quite a read...

Just to throw in my $.02 I'm replacing my first Avon Storm 2 rear, I got 12k out of it which is by far the most life I've ever gotten out of a rear tire.

I've only ever run Storms on the ST with no issues. I guess I'll have to do some thinking this evening to decide if I will continue using them or not.

 

[Rossi]

The original Storms in the 170/60/17 for the ST1300 only had a one ply sidewalls. The 160/70/17 for the 1100 had multi plys like other brands. I don`t have the Ultra 170/60/17 but I bet if Raven checks they are still one ply sidewalls.

If that's true, then that could be a reason not to put it on a ST1300.

 

[mjhenne]

Couldn't find the sidewall ply spec for 170/60/17 Ultra IIs on an Avon website but on Dennis Kirk the published spec is 1 ply.

http://www.denniskirk.com/jsp/product_catalog/Product.jsp?skuId=543757&utm_source=shopping&utm_medium=cse

"Capacities and Construction
Load Capacity/Inflation Pressure: 783 lbs/ 42 psi
Load Range: B
Bias or Radial: Radial
Tread Plies/Material: 1 Rayon/ 1Polyester/ 1 Steel
Sidewall Plies/Material: 1 Rayon"

 

[George]

I've wondered for a long time if the 160/70 would work on the 1300. Looks like yes. Makes sense to me.