Modern engines, much better quality than it was years back.

Pop-Pop

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I was just looking around and found this. Guy got 626,000 miles out of his 2014 Dodge Ram promaster cargo van engine. 285 miles a day for 2200 days. He did the oil changes at a normal 8,000 miles with some up to 11,000 miles. The camshaft chain guides finally just wore though the plastics and the engine threw codes. Not a small car wind-road load but a cargo van? Good going.

If you watch the video the engine insides look absolutely great inside. I've been thinking about getting a Jeep Wrangler and the 3.8 engine vs 3.6 (which started in 2012) has been a looking point for sure. But I think either will go many many more miles than most of us will ever tolerate before trading it off. Simple regular maintenance goes a long way.


I am truly shocked! Around here a toyota with 300,000 mi sells for $14000. I was pretty ticked when i spent $7000 on a subaru with 17500 mi. The car runs like a top tho!
 

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Thanks for bring this back to the original discussion............

ICE

In case those stuck on electric.... ICE means internal combustion engine. Like the original Post was about.
 
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Back to my first response, Roush was the name of the company that tested the first Pentastar V6. My opinion of the 2012 to 2018 is that, that is the engine they tested, not the subsequent modified, improved or enhanced - however it might be called.
I think the V6 engine is better and completely changed by Pentastar and other manufacturers, and the answer is simple - cam phasers.
I've got 18,000 km on a new Ford van with a 3.5 naturally aspirated V6 carrying a fair amount of weight and it makes more than enough power.
IMHO the biggest improvement in engine durability is programmable FI.
If you were in traffic thirty years ago, you probably remember difference between which 84 to 86 Honda Civics and Accords were good and which were ready for the scrap yard; you could almost draw a line between which were carbs and which were FI.
 
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"It found that brakes and tires on EVs release 1,850 times more particle pollution compared to modern tailpipes"

That's the foregone conclusion of the study. That brakes and tires, per mile, add 1,850 times as many particulates to the environment as the exhaust pipe of a gasoline car.

It's doing the same thing, though. It's acting like gasoline cars don't have brakes or tires.

Diving deeper, the "study" is by a company called "Emissions Analytics". The CEO and founder is a man whose degree from Oxford is in business with a focus in corporate consulting. They are a privately-owned for-profit company that doesn't have to publicly disclose their funding sources. So interesting ground for conflict of interest, but that doesn't mean the actual method of the study is fla... Oh. It's flawed.

"Emission Analytics found that tire wear emissions with about 1,100 pounds of battery weight in an EV are more than 400 times as great as direct exhaust particulate emissions. Most EV batteries weigh around 1,800 pounds."

Okay. Where's the comparison to tire wear in gasoline vehicles? "Because EVs are on average 30% heavier, brakes and tires on the battery-powered cars wear out faster than on standard cars." I mean, hey. That's testable.

Again, brakes aren't a contributor. Here is a manufacturer of brake pads pointing out that brakes on EVs last about two to four times as long as their combustion counterparts. The study data estimates that since EVs weigh 30-50% more than non-EVs, that a "conservative" estimate is that they go through brakes twice as fast. Putting it to real numbers, a standard sedan is going to average about 30,000 miles on a set of brake pads. A Tesla Model S that weighs 30% more than a Camry is seeing its brake pads last upward of 100,000 miles in real-world driving. The study claims they are only lasting 15,000 miles because hypothetically the car weighs more.

So maybe tire rubber?

Maybe. The next assumption made is the wrong one too and breaks the data. "As heavy cars drive on light-duty tires — most often made with synthetic rubber made from crude oil and other fillers and additives — they deteriorate and release harmful chemicals into the air, according to Emission Analytics."

I underlined the issue here. Heavy cars aren't driving on light-duty tires. They're getting tires with higher speed ratings, made from harder rubber, that degrades less, because they're heavier.

When you get into the data on it, it's very simply the company making an assumption (not using any actual data) that the 30% heavier car will go through the tire about 2.5 times as fast because it creates more heat. (I'm not going to get too deep into the math on kinetic energy, but let's be clear that energy is linear to weight, so a car 30% heavier can't be expending 100% more energy.)

Well, what do we see from actual real-world data? KBB actually tracks this to a degree, as does CarFax in better depth. What they're seeing from vehicle maintenance history is that entry-level (not performance trims, or else we have to compare to sports cars and nobody wants to do that) Teslas are getting about 40,000 miles from a set of tires, while a Camry is getting about 45,000. 5,000 miles shy of 45,000 miles is 11%. The tires wear out 11% faster, despite the weight being 30% higher, because they're using different tires on heavier cars.

"As heavy cars drive on light-duty tires"

These aren't "assumptions" being used in a study. It's raw data. Data that was accessible for the study, and decided against. It's intentionally lying because there's a profit motive to do so.

The study itself is bad. But it didn't get accelerated into the spotlight until an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal by Michael Buschbacher and Taylor Myers. I'm sure they have nothing to...

Yeah, it's predictable. Buschbacher is a member contributor to the Federalist Society, and through his legal firm represents Shell and Chevron, also being a paid public speaker and registering as a lobbyist in Congress on the facet of reducing fines for petrochemical spills into public waterways. His job is to make people scared to switch from gasoline. Taylor Myers, for all intents and purposes, doesn't exist. The only citation on this person on the internet is this article. No LinkedIn match to relevant policy, no mention from Michael as to who the contributor was or what their background is. Just... a person.

The New York Post journalist who wrote the article you linked to boosting this story? Her most recent contribution was an article arguing that Medicare should not be able to negotiate with pharmaceutical companies for drug prices; they should just owe the shelf price. Prior to the New York Post, she was with the Daily Mail. Not really the bastions of truthful journalism one may hope for in a career.

My point is this: You can do the math yourself. It isn't actually hard. When you get a bunch of people lining up and telling you that the new technology uses materials that are bad so it shouldn't be adopted, check and see if the old technology also does those things. 95% of the time, it does.
Well said. There is so much mis-information out there that's impacting how people think. Anyone who has had a Tesla knows that brakes aren't used during normal driving, so I expect the pads to last the lifetime of the car. My Lexus CT tires lasted about 30k miles and I expect my Tesla tires to last at least that. However, my heavy foot may prove me wrong here...
 
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"study" is by a company called "Emissions Analytics". Last time I looked up one of these enviormental companies it was run by a guy who stated the ice age was coming back in the 70s so a lot of people make assumtions. Sooner or later the truth comes out. It's not the only study that pointed out that it's not as green as the say it is so quit shoving it down our throats. Be honest about it. Let the technology grow and when it's good it will sell but it's not there yet.
Just to be clear on context, it's not an environmental research company. It's a company that performs marketing studies on behalf of oil companies.

I'm not saying "it's entirely green". I'm saying the actual impact is minimal, and if it wasn't, the studies trying to prove "green" cars are bad wouldn't have to blatantly lie.
 

dduelin

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Just to be clear on context, it's not an environmental research company. It's a company that performs marketing studies on behalf of oil companies.

I'm not saying "it's entirely green". I'm saying the actual impact is minimal, and if it wasn't, the studies trying to prove "green" cars are bad wouldn't have to blatantly lie.
If I am not mistaken there is a sidebar in that article that says something like their research shows particulate pollution from Tesla tires is over 1000% more than the other gas engine car's tires but over the life of the vehicles taking into account all emissions the Tesla netted 26% less impact. It's buried deep in the article after most readers have made up their mind.
 
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How hot is your garage? Is it really necessary to leave the AC on all the time? It seems like such a waste, so something to keep in mind if considering an EV if you live in a very warm place.
Can't not have AC automatically run to maintain safe battery temps. No way to turn it off. It prefers to keep them around 60-80F and if temps rises above that, it automatically runs AC. I'm converting garage into living quarters with additional insulation and pumping in house AC. More efficient than converting 220v to charge batteries then use batteries to run electric AC. Roughly 10% loss for each conversion.

What are you maintaining on your EV? I've had mine for almost a year and maintenance cost is $0 so far. I don't expect any maintenance until I need tires at maybe 25k? I haven't barely touched the brake pedal so far so brake pads will likely last the lifetime of the car.
Sorry, should've have said "repairs" rather than "maintenance". Had to wait while my wife pulls out service-records. So far on Model X, it has needed following in past 2-yrs:

- replaced cracked windshield twice, only 1st time replaced under warranty
- replaced rear-hatch motor & switches
- replaced rear gull-wing door motors, handles and switches
- replaced AC compressor 2x
- replaced entire AC system
- replaced passenger door window motor and switches
- replaced tyres 2x with way, way too low mileage 10k and 12k
- replaced 3rd set of rear tyres that got shredded
- replace rear trailing-arm bushings due to misalignment
- replaced both rear trailing-arms due to not maintaining alignment

Tesla is over-hyped POS and Musk is good con-man. I'm dumping it and getting Rivian. Better range and towing capacity since I'm towing 2x moto bikes to track, boat and perhaps camping trailer.
 
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If I am not mistaken there is a sidebar in that article that says something like their research shows particulate pollution from Tesla tires is over 1000% more than the other gas engine car's tires but over the life of the vehicles taking into account all emissions the Tesla netted 26% less impact. It's buried deep in the article after most readers have made up their mind.
Do these studies also include emissions from distant power-plants that generates electricity for Tesla?
Includes power-plant +power-line production, maintenance, repairs, replacements?
Uses true eMPG rating of Tesla from in-field user-provided tests rather than Tesla's gaming of EPA?
 
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If I am not mistaken there is a sidebar in that article that says something like their research shows particulate pollution from Tesla tires is over 1000% more than the other gas engine car's tires but over the life of the vehicles taking into account all emissions the Tesla netted 26% less impact. It's buried deep in the article after most readers have made up their mind.
The sidebar is worse: it specifically says particulate pollution from Tesla tires is over 1000% more than gas engine car's tailpipe emissions. Then it blips that the lifetime emission is considerably better, after an ad bar following a line that looks like a conclusion.

It's straight lying for the sake of financial interest. "EVs are not greener and are actually worse" as the title and theme, followed by "We actually found they're measurably not as bad even when we tried every bad-faith assumption we could". Which means the title and intro aren't just misleading; they're stating a falsehood.
 

dduelin

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Do these studies also include emissions from distant power-plants that generates electricity for Tesla?
Includes power-plant +power-line production, maintenance, repairs, replacements?
Uses true eMPG rating of Tesla from in-field user-provided tests rather than Tesla's gaming of EPA?
I was speaking just to the way Emisson Analytics buried deep in the article that their research found the net impact of the tire particulates was actually far different than "conclusion" they led off with. Video avatars and web link headlines are often the only thing a reader remembers and Breitbart's was blatantly misleading.

Those production of energy plant costs will mostly be incurred whether or not the energy from the plant will charge an EV or your home's A/C and they are largely one-time. The maintenance costs are going to be there and on-going regardless.
 
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Do these studies also include emissions from distant power-plants that generates electricity for Tesla?
Includes power-plant +power-line production, maintenance, repairs, replacements?
Uses true eMPG rating of Tesla from in-field user-provided tests rather than Tesla's gaming of EPA?
So here's where it gets really fun. The study trying to smear EVs? It points out that real-world range isn't as high as the EPA range, and to be "conservative" in their estimate, they assume fifty percent of claimed efficiency. That's more in line with winter range, sure, but obviously it's not winter all year long. Their reaction to Tesla's gaming of the EPA was to overcorrect by a factor of two, and they still came to a conclusion that EVs are 26% less emissive than gasoline cars.

The studies firmly include power emissions from power plants. The assumption this one runs with specifies that they're using the most emissive coal-burning plant left in operation in the US as their baseline.

Regarding infrastructure, it's entirely irrelevant. Why? Because the electricity gets used anyway. Think of it like this. The average 8-pump gas station with convenience store uses more than 75,000 kWh of electricity per month, per American Electric Power. The footprint of just the store is about 15,000 kWh. The bulk of it is the overhead canopy lighting and the pumps.

In the US there are estimated to be about 1.5 million gas pumps. That one for every two hundred cars (283,000,000 registered passenger vehicles on the road). Assuming most drivers fill up once weekly, or four times a month, the electric use for just having the gas pumps is about 50 kWh per car per month, plus the transmission losses that come with it. That's the electricity necessary to get gasoline into your car, plus the gasoline itself being used to power your car.

The average American driver goes 230 miles per week. Electric car, we're looking at about 60 kWh per week or 240 per month. Plus transmission losses. A 190 kWh delta is going to have barely any impact. Very specifically, that's the same as a large refrigerator. Plenty of people have two refrigerators.

That's the thing. Yes, there are extra costs to electricity distribution. But those are still there for gasoline cars. And rather than using that electric to move the car, we're running lights above and televisions on the gas pumps. If we are measuring the impact of distribution of energy, then we have to say how much electricity was used at the truck stop that the gasoline tanker filled up at. And we can do that over and over and over, continually narrowing the gap in favor of electric cars.

If the data supported electric cars being more environmentally detrimental, studies arguing it wouldn't have to lie.
 
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W0QNX

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Short and sweet summary

Yes, the production of an electric drivetrain releases the same carbon as burning 280 gallons of gas. But the production of a gas drivetrain takes 192, and then the gas car is always by necessity going to burn gas.
A man needs to have goals. I have a goal of burning a train car full of West Texas crude oil in my life and I work on that goal regularly. For "engines" I have a V8, a V4, a Boxer 2 cylinder an I4 an outboard boat with an inline 4, 3 mowers with single cylinders 2 chainsaws with singles and a leaf blower that makes lots of noise and is even a 2smoke. Every one (except the 2smoke) has a crankcase half full of Texas' best oils. I like the way they all suck squeeze bang and blow and that sound is music to my ears....

What kind of cells does your EV have?

And could you give us a site that shows my one car takes 50 KWh to fill the tank a month? You said "Assuming most drivers fill up once weekly, or four times a month, the electric use for just having the gas pumps is about 50 kWh per car per month " Your math seems kind of Evariable on that. If a gas station pump has a 2 hp gas pump (just guessing on the size) and we know it takes about 750 watts per hour per hp so that 2 hp takes 1500 watts per hour to pump my gas. So it uses 1.5KWH to pump my gas for an hour. So 50 divided by 1.5 is 33 hours of gas pumping. I don't think my car will hold 33 hours of gas pumping into the tank much less 33 mins.

You EV types got some weird math just like those Gas company reports you're complaining about.
 
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A man needs to have goals. I have a goal of burning a train car full of West Texas crude oil in my life and I work on that goal regularly. For "engines" I have a V8, a V4, a Boxer 2 cylinder an I4 an outboard boat with an inline 4, 3 mowers with single cylinders 2 chainsaws with singles and a leaf blower that makes lots of noise and is even a 2smoke. Every one (except the 2smoke) has a crankcase half full of Texas' best oils. I like the way they all suck squeeze bang and blow and that sound is music to my ears....

What kind of cells does your EV have?

And could you give us a site that shows my one car takes 50 KWh to fill the tank a month? You said "Assuming most drivers fill up once weekly, or four times a month, the electric use for just having the gas pumps is about 50 kWh per car per month " Your math seems kind of Evariable on that. If a gas station pump has a 2 hp gas pump (just guessing on the size) and we know it takes about 750 watts per hour per hp so that 2 hp takes 1500 watts per hour to pump my gas. So it uses 1.5KWH to pump my gas for an hour. So 50 divided by 1.5 is 33 hours of gas pumping. I don't think my car will hold 33 hours of gas pumping into the tank much less 33 mins.

You EV types got some weird math just like those Gas company reports you're complaining about.
You're missing a few key points.

1) It's not the power for the mechanical pump itself; it's the display on the pumps and the array of lights above it that are consuming power 24 hours a day. That is where data on electrical usage per gas pump rests. Whether you're sitting at it or not, it's still using electricity for when you need to use it. Amortizing that across the whole fleet of registered passenger vehicles in the US is the best case scenario (because not every vehicle is driven) and that's still the electric usage per day.

2) The fill-up every week is largely immaterial to that electrical use, because it's a fixed cost of the gas station existing, but quite plainly, the average American driver goes about 12,000 miles per year, or 230 per week. The nationwide gas mileage average for passenger vehicles is currently 24 miles per gallon, so that's 9.6 gallons of gas per week. A full tank.

3) My EV doesn't use any kind of cells because I don't have an EV. My hybrid has two packs, one with a small lithium ion cell, one that composed of nickel metal hydride cells, and also a standard lead acid battery at the front. It's also got an I4.

"You EV types got some weird math just like those Gas compan[ies]" when I'm not an "EV type" and I'm not being paid or compensated for the math is a braindead take. A company who makes money by lying to you is lying to you and it can be pointed out VERY clearly (again, the report you're trying to rely on still comes to the conclusion that with their own shitty math, electric cars are 26% less emissive over their life than gas cars). And you're glad to be lied to.

Don't want an EV? Don't freaking buy one. I don't give a ***** because I gain nothing either way. But I do take issue with hundred-billion dollar oil companies lying to people to sway their opinion.
 

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You're missing a few key points....
Don't want an EV? Don't freaking buy one. I don't give a ***** because I gain nothing either way. But I do take issue with hundred-billion dollar oil companies lying to people to sway their opinion.
The key point you miss is the only one I care about; the EV community doesn't want to allow ANYONE else the choice. I've never heard any ICE advocate promote outlawing EV purchase. :mad:

I'd much rather be lied to but still allowed to form an opinion and make a decision, than be told what I must do because a governing body somewhere KNOWS what is best for EVERYONE. We just want to be allowed to make our own choice.

What IS being advocated by EV promoters is: don't want an EV, tough you are going to have to purchase one in the future, or ride a bicycle/walk because you can not buy an ICE. :mad:

Tom
 
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You're missing a few key points.

3) My EV doesn't use any kind of cells because I don't have an EV. My hybrid has two packs, one with a small lithium ion cell, one that composed of nickel metal hydride cells, and also a standard lead acid battery at the front. It's also got an I4.
I see how you point out your hybrid has no cells it has "packs" which would be the lithium ion cell and metal hydride cells. That kind of no but yes facts is what confuses me so easily when the facts comes out.

Just curious which non hundred billion dollar lying oil company do you buy the ICE fuel half or your Hybrid's gas at and are they open 24/7 with lights? Is your Hybrid a part of that delta of oil burner data or not? Seems like your Hybrid would use a bit of that wasted semi tanker upcharge too skewing "our" ICE delta.
 

TPadden

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Boy these modern Engines are really getting better! :rofl1:
Said it before, but it's still accurate: I haven't had a single combustion engine problem in over 25 years. Modern is great and keeps getting better. :thumb:

The very few vehicle problems I've had all involved electricity ... :rolleyes:

Tom
 

diferg

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Said it before, but it's still accurate: I haven't had a single combustion engine problem in over 25 years. Modern is great and keeps getting better. :thumb:

The very few vehicle problems I've had all involved electricity ... :rolleyes:

Tom


SSSHHH!:eek: If you Speak It, They Will Come! Seriously, I remember in late 60's / early 70's I wouldn't buy a used car with more than 40,000 miles. My experience was that cars usually died at about 65,000 miles. PS: I have never seen an electric ENGINE. :biggrin:
 

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If the energy costs of running a gas station is being factored in, why wouldn't the cost of a charging station also be factored in? Lets face it, most people who drive an EV have a home and significant income. Home charging works for them. But roughly 35-40% live in apartments. Here in New England, much of the rental properties, and even subsidized housing only have on-street parking. If they want and EV, how do they charge it? I see EV's parked on the streets, they have to be charging somewhere.... I'm guessing that "charging stations" will morph into coffee shops/fast food/etc. They know you'll be waiting 20-30 minutes for a charge, and they have you. Even if the battery technology improves drastically allowing very quick charging, analogous to pumping a tank of gas, the charging stations will have exactly the same energy costs to operate as they do now. Gas stations may decline, and there may not need to be as many "charging stations" but there will certainly be a need. They will have a cost.

The reality is it takes X amount of energy to move Y of mass. Period. It really doesn't matter what the "fuel" is. The support infrastructure for vehicles AND their operators will have to exist, just as it does now. How much more "efficient" one is over the other is not entirely clear. Yes, it appears electric has an advantage now. Will that continue in the future with mass adoption? Maybe, but there are a whole lot of unintended consequences when things like this happen.

ICE is already legislated out of existence. The current emissions laws in the US have already done that. I am responsible for a small municipal utility fleet. The cost of operation of new vehicles, particularly diesels, is becoming prohibitively expensive. There isn't a day that goes by that I don't have a driver report a CEL on a vehicle. And 99% of the time its emissions control related problems. We are hard on vehicles, so I don't think the average vehicle owner is seeing this issue yet, however I believe what will happen is vehicles will have expensive problems earlier in their service life than before. This will do two things: It will drive up the cost of ICE ownership, and it will reduce the used car inventory. These factors alone will push people into EV's.

If a Model3 made financial sense, I'd buy it. But it doesn't, maybe in future.....
 
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