I think those that say its about choice has it figured out. America was founded on the choice and freedom of the individual not the government. I say those that want EV's you should buy them by all means. Those that don't want them let them be
Modern engines, much better quality than it was years back.
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diferg
Dan & Ingrid
You are right @TPadden . I have a 2007 Hyundai Tucson with about 180,000 miles on it. bought it new for the wife but now it has become my car It constantly needs oil changes (does not use any oil) and air filters, also occasional timing belt ( will never buy another car with timing belt) the only problem the car has ever had was that lately the radio has static for the first few minutes, also the heater / ac fan occasionally stops till i readjust the air speed control, and the MAF sensor throws codes for high and low flow rates (replaced it twice with no joy) I think it has bad grounds somewhere. oh yeah the latest set of Hankook tires need replacing after only 110,000 miles. I am at the point of buying a cheap set of tires because this thing still runs great has no body rust and to replace it would not make economic sense. Yes new engines are getting better!
rwthomas1
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I dunno, every timing chain job I've seen recently is an absolute nightmare. Chains are great, but you must keep up with the oil changes. Even then the chains stretch and the guides wear out, and that happens long before the rest of the engine wears out. Youtube is full of vids of timing chain nightmares. If you plan on keeping a car well into "high mileage" territory a belt makes far more sense. 340K on my commuter, 3 timing belts so far, another due at 380K. Parts are $300 and a day of my time.
TPadden
Tom Padden
rwthomas1
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Pretty much where I'm at with EV's. An older or high mileage EV will likely have a pretty low value. Batteries don't age well, and every charge cycle ages them. The largest "value" item in an EV is the battery pack. Once than "ages" out, the value of the vehicle should plummet. I've yet to see an EV where the battery was easily accessible and replaceable. There are people messing about with DIY repairs and mods on EV's, and I can only assume that will increase in time as the EV fleet begins to age.Nightmare will most likely be EV's with 340K, I'll wait and see,,,
Tom
The EV makers should, willing or not, settle on 3-4 battery form factors. Make the battery packs replaceable, interchangeable, serviceable. Most importantly, that they can be swapped in 5-10 minutes. Long road trips become a non-issue if I can pull into a "battery station" and they simply swap the pack. Defective batteries become a non-issue because they aren't part of the vehicle, they can be managed by an energy company. Its a simple thing to monitor every batteries health, even the lowliest power tool batteries have chips that monitor charge cycles, etc. When a battery gives trouble, its pulled for repair or recycling. Simple.
And none of that would keep an EV owner from charging at home, or keeping one pack for as long as they want, owning their own pack, or choosing to "rent" one. I understand this would take time and infrastructure. But this is likely what it will take UNLESS new battery tech allows charging in the same time as pumping a tank of fuel.
TPadden
Tom Padden
Batteries are only one factor and can be replaced; it's also the ECU's, sensors, switches, relays, chips, etc. There is no free lunch.
Tom
Tom
The price of a replacement LEAF battery currently hovers around $3,500-$4,500 for the 30 kWh battery, and $3,000-$5,000 for the 24 kWh battery. We’re not 100% sure why these are still so expensive; it’s possible that since Nissan doesn’t use them anymore, scarcity may be driving up the price. These replacement batteries won’t be new; most 24 kWh and 30 kWh replacements are either going to be gently used (salvage) or refurbished Nissan LEAF batteries.
Nissan is currently using two larger battery packs in the LEAF: the 40 kWh pack and the 62 kWh pack. You can expect replacement costs for these packs at about $6,500-$7,500 for the 40 kWh battery and $8,500-$9,500 for the 62 kWh LEAF battery.
Nissan is currently using two larger battery packs in the LEAF: the 40 kWh pack and the 62 kWh pack. You can expect replacement costs for these packs at about $6,500-$7,500 for the 40 kWh battery and $8,500-$9,500 for the 62 kWh LEAF battery.
Theory is good but what is the cost and will the electrical grid hold up. In theory I plan a long trip, battery runs low I go to a swap out station. They test the battery and see the life span has reached the end. My dash monitor doesn't agree with their testing method but I can't go anywhere else. So they put a battery in ,charge me $2,000 and I'm on my way? Am I getting a fully charged battery,it's rebuilt, can I make it to my destination, or did I just get screwed? Or it will be 6 hour wait we are out of stock right now. logistical nightmare. We have all heard horror stories of breakdowns on the road with gas cars and people being taken advantage of. This country used to be filled with honest people but now in my opinion the glass is half full.
OP
OP
W0QNX
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Looks like somebody completely skipped the first post in the thread. Don't bother go looking, his 626,000 mile engine quit because the chain guides wore out.
rwthomas1
Site Supporter
The electrical grid is another thing entirely. "They" don't test the battery. The battery tests itself. Even the lowliest power tool battery has the capability to tell you how many cycles it has had, how deeply discharged it has been, dormant periods, everything. Your dash monitor and any other monitor would simply tell you what the on-board battery monitor data is. This is already being done with Lithium Ion replacement batteries. There is an on-battery system that protects it from overcharging, undercharging, overheating, charging when too cold, etc. etc. This would allow competition in the battery market IF there were removeable/replaceable batteries. You wouldn't pay full price for the battery. You would pay the fee to charge it, and for how many cycles you put on it. If you park the car for a month, there would be a small monthly fee to have it sitting there. You would be paying for the cost of the energy contained in the battery, and the use you put on it. Not a whole lot different than buying gas and depreciation on your car. If you care for the battery, keep it charged up and maintain it with the "long life" parameters, well, that would be cheaper. If you abuse the battery, run it down to nothing, use it for a high-demand application and stress the cells, then you pay more. The on-battery monitor can track all of this easily. Much like a car lease, if you take care of it and don't go over the mileage, there aren't any extra fees. Abuse the car, exceed the mileage, well, you pay.
With regard to people getting screwed over, that happens now, and always has. Nothing new here. From a logistics standpoint I can log into warehouses and see the stock realtime for many, many items. Rental car and equipment companies regularly move "stock" around to keep up with demand. The way cars are today, connected to everything, its not a stretch to say the car itself will be able to tell you where the next battery is. And if you can't swap it, you certainly have the option to charge it. This is easy stuff. If the US is good at anything, logistics is it.
rwthomas1
Site Supporter
Oh, I didn't skip it. Just that a timing chain and guides lasting 626K is very unusual. Youtube is chock full of vids of dead timing chains/guides with well under 200K. And then there is Ford who thought it was a good idea to turn a coolant pump with a timing chain on the inside of the engine. When it leaks it leaks into the crankcase, and to change it is $2000. So yeah, I'll keep the belts thanks.
Andrew Shadow
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I can't recall the name but the Chinese EV auto maker, who is now the world's biggest selling EV maker, is doing just that. They have battery swap stations all over China. They are fully automated and swap the battery in under three minutes and you are on your way. I don't recall what the cost was but it couldn't have been outrageous or I probably would.
Andrew Shadow
Site Supporter
I was told that this is because they are a very popular battery pack for an off-purpose use such as off-grid electricity systems or something like that. This market sucks them all up driving up the price for everyone.
TPadden
Tom Padden
Just another product that the price for everyone would be driven down by DRILL, BABY DRILL.
Tom
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Uhhhhh, I don't know the size of the city you live in but there are already choices when it comes to replacing the battery pack in a hybrid or EV, and it is serviceable. Shops make money on battery service just like any other system in a vehicle. (you don't crush a golf cart when it needs new batteries). This business will just grow with time and the more electric or hybrid vehicles on the road.
For example it's not a full EV but the Toyota Prius has been around since 1997 - when it needs a battery pack you can buy new OEM, new aftermarket, or reman or refurbished used. I went shopping with my son last year when he wanted a used Prius and learned how popular these 10 and 20 year old cars are and how cheaply the battery packs are replaced or serviced. People are driving the Prius to 300,000 miles or more and some oldest models have already received a new battery pack. Often people will quote the OEM price and overlook or ignore options other than OEM. If they want to make their case for an anti-EV sentiment they quote OEM. What if you need an alternator your 300,000 mile beater, do you buy OEM? Same for a 2009 Toyota Prius, do you buy the $1200 OEM alternator or do you go with the $300 reman? Same idea with the battery pack. Toyota gets $3300 for OEM but aftermarket new or refurbished packs range from about $1,900 to $680. In my city of a million there are shops that already focus on hybrid/EV battery replacement or repair and some of them are mobile and come to you. The packs are a series of individual cells and some shops will just replace the marginal cells to get a cash-strapped owner by for the least cost. A transmission or internal engine repair for any 15 year old car could easily top $3000 and sometimes it's still worth it to the owner to do the repair.
I think there's a bigger problem than the EV car itself. The infrastructure isn't anywhere near handling the load today, let alone when 100% of the vehicles on the road are EVs...unless of course, you eliminate 80% of the vehicles on the road. Whether you eliminate the people too or not, depends on whether you are a member of the WEF or not.
The fires in California were started by the power company wires and transformers. I think it was last summer when the power companies and gov't told the people they had to turn off their air conditioners and charge their EVs some other day. The electrical load today was more than the infrastructure could handle. Now just because the gov't politicians declare that all vehicles will be EVs by 20XX...doesn't mean a thing, except to make your life miserable. They can't wave a magical wand and get from here to there.
The Texas wildfires were caused by...wait for it...bad infrastructure. Same thing, different state.
The electrical infrastructure can't handle today's loads and there's no sign they'll handle a dramatically increased load in the future.
Chris
The fires in California were started by the power company wires and transformers. I think it was last summer when the power companies and gov't told the people they had to turn off their air conditioners and charge their EVs some other day. The electrical load today was more than the infrastructure could handle. Now just because the gov't politicians declare that all vehicles will be EVs by 20XX...doesn't mean a thing, except to make your life miserable. They can't wave a magical wand and get from here to there.
The Texas wildfires were caused by...wait for it...bad infrastructure. Same thing, different state.
The electrical infrastructure can't handle today's loads and there's no sign they'll handle a dramatically increased load in the future.
Chris
rwthomas1
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Not necessarily. I have a friend, and I have posted this before, that put a 15kw solar array on his house, with a battery system and purchased a Tesla3 at the same time. After the rebates, tax incentives, etc. he told me he was into it for @$82K. Now he has no electric bill, charges the Tesla on the solar stored in the battery, and the house can run for @3days without grid power in raining weather. As soon as the sun came out the batteries topped off in half a day. And this is in New England....
I take everything with a grain of salt, but my friend isn't anywhere near a "liberal, proselytizing, we-must-save-the-planet" type. (Not that thats a bad thing, if you are, hey you be you) Hes a retired military/airline guy, he's not prone to embellishment so I'm accepting his appraisal of the system at face value. Yes, that is a lot of money. However I'm guessing that as these systems become more popular the cost will be half that.
If you can afford that system, its a great way to say screw the politicians, and not worry about the infrastructure, while driving a car that is independent of energy costs. I view that system as a great way to raise a giant middle finger at the energy companies AND the politicians. My buddy doesn't care about the cost of electricity, (which went up 47% in one year here) or the cost of gas for 90+% of his driving. Hes paying a fixed cost that is already cheaper than what he was paying before, and the cost of electric and gas is only going up. The talk is all about bad infrastructure and the need to upgrade the grid. Nope, if you can swing it, upgrade your own home, be your own grid.
Valid points. But on the whole...there's some things that still won't work.
The first thing is ...did he really pay $82K for the solar system to charge his Tesla? On top of the cost of the Tesla?
That's more than the cost of some Tesla models or other EVs! I guess if you can afford it, go for it...but why do we give people with that much money rebates, when the cost of that rebate is paid for by people who make a quarter of what he does and can't afford what they are being told to support? If he has that much money, he should be paying for the full cost himself. But that's another subject for a later time.
Lastly, even at half the cost, $41K is a lot of money just so I can charge my car.
Chris
The first thing is ...did he really pay $82K for the solar system to charge his Tesla? On top of the cost of the Tesla?
That's more than the cost of some Tesla models or other EVs! I guess if you can afford it, go for it...but why do we give people with that much money rebates, when the cost of that rebate is paid for by people who make a quarter of what he does and can't afford what they are being told to support? If he has that much money, he should be paying for the full cost himself. But that's another subject for a later time.And therein lies the rub. He's got a great setup...within a one charge radius of his home. And when he gets out past that one charge radius...he's on that infrastructure that's falling apart. His system will work great if he lives in a15-Minute City. But today, the reality is our electrical system in large parts of the country is barely handling the load now...or breaking down and causing loss of lives from fires. Putting more demand on the infrastructure without having the infrastructure already in place, is gross stupidity.
Lastly, even at half the cost, $41K is a lot of money just so I can charge my car.
Chris
Only cost me $4k to put in 220v line into garage and charger for Tesla. But... my hydro bill has tripled and I don't qualify for 1st low-cost tier any more. That's extra power going across grid that previously came from petrol. So yes, there is extra demand on infrastructure that many conveniently gloss over. Rolling brown-outs in CA is prime-example example of this (where most Teslas are sold).
Not to mention I now have to convert garage to living quarters with more insulation and house AC/heater ducted in to keep batteries comfortable. My sister-in-law is selling her Tesla Roadster because of this. It costs her more just sitting around in garage than when she actually uses it on weekends.
Total fixed-cost in personal upgrades will be about $10k just to get Tesla. That'll buy me 5-6 yrs of petrol on ICE autos.
Not to mention I now have to convert garage to living quarters with more insulation and house AC/heater ducted in to keep batteries comfortable. My sister-in-law is selling her Tesla Roadster because of this. It costs her more just sitting around in garage than when she actually uses it on weekends.
Total fixed-cost in personal upgrades will be about $10k just to get Tesla. That'll buy me 5-6 yrs of petrol on ICE autos.