Rear brakes!

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I have the 2003-2005 Manual. Section 17 only has 42 pages. Page 17-42 talks about the installation of the rear wheel after the rebuilding of the caliper.

My question was: Do the two bolts that bolt the caliper to the caliper bracket, have to be tightened in a particular sequence. One has a torque requirement of 51 lb and the other 25 lb.
 
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I have the 2003-2005 Manual. Section 17 only has 42 pages. Page 17-42 talks about the installation of the rear wheel after the rebuilding of the caliper.

My question was: Do the two bolts that bolt the caliper to the caliper bracket, have to be tightened in a particular sequence. One has a torque requirement of 51 lb and the other 25 lb.
Might check this thread ... the link I show is for Reply #7

 

Firstpeke

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Without reading through the entire thread again and hopefully not having a suck eggs moment..... are you sure the left front caliper is not dragging ever so slightly causing the SMC to partially activate the rear centre piston?

I miss my ST1100's for such great brakes, but then, I am a bit paranoid about brakes and prefer to clean my calipers at every tyre change, every service and if they are looking really cruddy.. which living in Scotland is usually from November to April......
I hope you get it sorted out and it's not something that you have to sell a body part to pay for!
 

Igofar

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The SMC will activate the rear outer pistons, not the single center ones.
 
OP
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The bike currently has EBC fronts, and I am replacing with OEM pads (due today).
I believe there is an ever so minor drag on front, which shows itself more at speed - I’ve removed and re-greased fronts but still not happy with front. It’s not binding as such, just not as free as I would like, a slight feel of roughness if you would when rotating - which appears to be from the SMC side of the bike. Will also loosen and re-tighten as per manual when doing this to remove that as any potential issue.

I changed the rear to OEM pads and it now rotates freely on centre stand ( 1 and half rotation) however have also ordered a replacement bracket for rear due to play on the pad retaining clip on the bracket.

im tempted to see if I can get the old bracket re- engineered and use as spare / backup.

im very much crossing my fingers that the change to oem pads fully fixes my issues ad it’s already made a massive difference to rear.
Cheers.
 

Sadlsor

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I've been surprised that aftermarket companies haven't successfully engineered replacement brake pads for the ST1300, but it is what it is.
Galfer and EBC, and others, have been able to produce decent, or even improved brake pads for other Honda models, that didn't introduce fitment or performance challenges.
In the end, over the years I've watched many threads about brake issues, and aside from mechanical wear / abuse, particularly our beloved SMC, OEM brake pads have pretty much been part of every situation I can recall.
As a natural-born contrarian, I often turn my back on "conventional wisdom", but when it comes to my 1300, @Igofar has the experience and success in diagnosing and resolving mechanical issues with this bike, so I have learned to just go with his advice.
 
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I've been surprised that aftermarket companies haven't successfully engineered replacement brake pads for the ST1300, but it is what it is.
My guess - "ROI" ... why spend design and manufacturing time on a product that will only sell occasionally. (?)
 

Sadlsor

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'Cuz there once was a time the 1300s were mass-produced, and considered a high-end motorcycle.
They actually had at least a 10yr production run, which I thought would qualify it as a candidate for such consumables... not to mention, they were known as high-mileage bikes, further justifying the investment.
And lastly, there often is cross-model interchangeability.
But y'all know me, and I'm not always right.
 

Andrew Shadow

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My guess - "ROI" ... why spend design and manufacturing time on a product that will only sell occasionally. (?)
Except for the fact that they have already spent the money on design and manufacturing time on a product that they did not design and manufacture properly, this would make sense.
To not have fixed them once they were released for sale leads to less ROI as no one wants to use them.
 
OP
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Update:

I’ve installed the new rear bracket, this with change to Honda OEM pads has solved my rear issue.

there was ever so slightly an amount of play on the pad slider on the bracket, probably 1mm at most - however considering it should be 0, 1 was obviously too much!
The rear now spins freely, probably 1 and half rotations, however can feel massive difference - nothing feels like it’s binding.
Bike feels a lot better when on the move, only time will tell if my MPG improves.

will be changing fronts to OEM in due course.

cheers all!
 

jfheath

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A couple of things to check when you install your OEM pads. Rear OEM pads have a square notch in the tab end of the backing plate - at the other end from the hold for the pad pin.
It fits into a chrome retaining clip that fits into the caliper bracket. This has a ridge in it to correspond with the notch in the backing plate.

So in the photo below there are three pods. From left to right:
Left : Rear pad - has a notch.
Middle : Front pad - there is not notch
Right : Pad chrome backing plate (for both pads) and on top is a white heat shield for rear pads only.

1688838988868.jpeg

All non-OEM pads that I have seen have a notch. Be careful that this does not confuse you.

Below are two shots of the chromed retaining clip - both take fromt he reverse side.

On the left - the rear retaining clip, which has a ridge punched into it from underneath - which is what you can see.
On the right - the front retaining clip - no ridge.

1688839012441.jpeg 1688839047822.jpeg


If you put the ridged retaining clip in the front caliper bracket, with OEM front pads, the ridge will stop the pads from moving away from the discs. This will cause the pads to drag, the SMC to operate in the front left caliper bracket, and the rear brakes will drag.

Similarly, the white heat shield that comes with the rear pads - if you fit one of those to the front pads - there isn't room, and the pads will not release from the discs whent he brake lever is released. This will again operate the rear brakes.

---

You greased the guide pins that slide inside your new rubbber boots. If you used normal grease, get rid of it. It will make the rubber boots swell, they will no longer seal to prevent water getting in and you will get rusted pins. You need to use rubber grease (for hydraulics - often referred to as red rubber grease in the UK) - or silicone grease.
But that won't cause your problem.
But the wrong quanitity will. Too much, it creates an air lock and the caliper will spring back under air pressure to press one of the pads against the disc. The disc will get hot, the hear will pass through to the caliper, the fluid in the caliper will get hot, expand and apply the brakes.
A smear of grease is all that is required.

You may well learn a few thigns from this article.

Article [13] - ST1300 Maintenance - Brakes- Avoiding the Pitfalls | ST1300 Articles | ST-Owners.com


nb - none of this negates what other folks have said. Its just that these are easy fixes that can cause the same symptoms.

And cheaper.
 

jfheath

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I have the 2003-2005 Manual. Section 17 only has 42 pages. Page 17-42 talks about the installation of the rear wheel after the rebuilding of the caliper.

My question was: Do the two bolts that bolt the caliper to the caliper bracket, have to be tightened in a particular sequence. One has a torque requirement of 51 lb and the other 25 lb.
This Information is Wrong.

Sorry @etalors - not you. It is the manual that is wrong - you were right to question the torque settings.

Hang on I will come back and explain this. I wanted to post it before you tightened that bolt.


1688840143199.png

The red slider pin screws into the threaded part of the caliper bracket that is coloured red.


The red rubber bush fits into the hole that is underneath the caliper - under the N in Nissin and just to the left of the green slider pin.
That slider pin has a torque value of 23Nm, 17lbf ft

The green slider pin does not fit into that red hole.

The green slider pin fits through the green threaded at the front end of the caliper - most of it sticks out the other side, the last part of the pin is threaded.
The green slider pin is larger and requires a torque of 27Nm , 20lbf ft - (not 69Nm , 51 lbf ft as the diagram in the Honda Service manual shows)

The people who drew the diagram have confused that green slider pin with the caliper stopper bolt - which is shown on the page for the swinging arm, which does require a torque of 69Nm

Don't take my word for it. Confirm it for yourself. The green pin is the Main Caliper Slide Pin. It is listed along with the correct torque setting at the front of Ch 17. P17-5 in my copy.

The same information is give in section 1 P 1-12 onwards in my manual - headed Engine & Frame Torque values - under hydraulic brake.

In the same sections, further down the list you will see the settings for the rear stopper bolt.

----------------------------

The second point is that these are just slider pins. They do not bolt the caliper to the caliper bracket. The caliper just slides on these two pins, and once you have taken the bracket off the axle, the caliper and bracket are separated simply by sliding them apart.

Unless the pins have become so corroded that they are worthless, then there is absoulutely no need to remove these pins. Leave them alone !!

---
If you have taken these pins out of their respective mounting threads and have then tightened that main Pin to 69Nm - 51 Ft lb - then there is a fair chance that you have damaged the threads. If those pins do not sit parallel to each other, you will have all sorts of problems with your rear brakes.


Here is the offending picture from the 2003/2004 manual

1688841702946.png
 
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OP
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Everything that needed grease got it sparingly
Slider pins, a smidgen on the boots, pad sliders, backing plates.
all put back together as workshop manual and documents off here.

fronts are currently running EBC’s and work - think could be better, and given issue with the rear will be changing fronts to OEM when I get time - will also apply lessons learnt on rear to the fronts.

my issue with rear appears to have been non oem pads with backing plates put on (pretty sure from a rear oem set as they had the white insulator) (by previous owner BTW, not me) plus a slightly worn rear bracket - the pad slider could be wiggled up and down ever so slightly on the inside - which obviously allowed the pads to shift / change angle.
New bracket that part is solid and has no room to move, so clearly old bracket worn slightly.

just want to thank those on here who have helped!
 
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This Information is Wrong.
Sorry @etalors - not you. It is the manual that is wrong - you were right to question the torque settings.

Hang on I will come back and explain this. I wanted to post it before you tightened that bolt.


1688840143199.png

The red slider pin screws into the threaded part of the caliper bracket that is coloured red.


The red rubber bush fits into the hole that is underneath the caliper - under the N in Nissin and just to the left of the green slider pin.
That slider pin has a torque value of 23Nm, 17lbf ft

The green slider pin does not fit into that red hole.

The green slider pin fits through the green threaded at the front end of the caliper - most of it sticks out the other side, the last part of the pin is threaded.
The green slider pin is larger and requires a torque of 27Nm , 20lbf ft - (not 69Nm , 51 lbf ft as the diagram in the Honda Service manual shows)

The people who drew the diagram have confused that green slider pin with the caliper stopper bolt - which is shown on the page for the swinging arm, which does require a torque of 69Nm

Don't take my word for it. Confirm it for yourself. The green pin is the Main Caliper Slide Pin. It is listed along with the correct torque setting at the front of Ch 17. P17-5 in my copy.

The same information is give in section 1 P 1-12 onwards in my manual - headed Engine & Frame Torque values - under hydraulic brake.

In the same sections, further down the list you will see the settings for the rear stopper bolt.

----------------------------

The second point is that these are just slider pins. They do not bolt the caliper to the caliper bracket. The caliper just slides on these two pins, and once you have taken the bracket off the axle, the caliper and bracket are separated simply by sliding them apart.

Unless the pins have become so corroded that they are worthless, then there is absoulutely no need to remove these pins. Leave them alone !!

---
If you have taken these pins out of their respective mounting threads and have then tightened that main Pin to 69Nm - 51 Ft lb - then there is a fair chance that you have damaged the threads. If those pins do not sit parallel to each other, you will have all sorts of problems with your rear brakes.


Here is the offending picture from the 2003/2004 manual

1688841702946.png
The two bolts whose torque values I am interested in are in the attached pictures. I have my finger pointing at each bolt. Thanks.
 

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jfheath

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Your first picture:

1688885746892.jpeg

That bolt is the rear caliper bracket stopper bolt. It screws into the swinging arm and slips through an oval shaped hole in the caliper bracket.

It stops the bracket from rotating around the axle when the brakes are applied. This has a torque of 69Nm, it is an ALOC bolt and the manual says to replace with new. I will clean mine up, apply some fresh loctite and re-use it a few times, as my tyres are changed every 5000 miles. But I always have a brand new one in stock, and the manual says to replace with new. I apply a smear of moly paste to the shaft ( not the threads), as it moves against the elongated hole with the different expansion rates of the bracket compared to the swinging arm.

When refitting, this bolt must be secured before the axle bolt is tightened.

----------

Your Second Picture - The Main Caliper Slider Pin

1688886155107.jpeg 1688892979851.png


This bolt is the main caliper slide pin. The green one in my diagram and is the one that is incorrectly labelled as requiring a torque of 69Nm in the manual. It is bolted onto the caliper itself, and generally, there is no need to remove it. It slides into the small rubber boot that is fitted to the bracket. The correct torque for this is 27Nm.
The smaller extract you can see the part of the caliper bracket where the pin slides in - outlined in green. The rubber boot is just visible at the open end of the green loop.

To remove the caliper, you need to remove the axle nut, remove the brake pads, remove the stopper bolt, top photo.
Push the axle part way through from the left - enough to clear the bracket, and lift the bracket and caliper up. It is restricted by the brake hoses. Be careful not to strain them. You can then slide the caliper away from the bracket. The caliper has to stay supported due to the hoses. The bracket comes off completely.

I know you have done some of this, but removing that main slider pin can be problematic.
Quite a few people on here have had problems with the bolt being cross-threaded and then not being parallel to the other slider pin - leaving the caliper unable to move freely towards and away from the brake disc. A posible reason for this may be due to thread damage casued by a previous owner using the wrong torque value on the diagram of 69Nm. Later versions of the manual may have corrected this - but the 2003, 2004 version is widely available (illegally) on line and that version contains the same error on the diagram as my official printed version.

If you do remove it - then when refitting put in the bolt up to the point where you would start to screw the bolt in, but instead, turn it gently anticlockwise. By gently holding the bolt agains the threads you can feel the point where the thread starts as you turn. The bolt 'clicks' as it drops by something around a mm - depending on the distance between the threads. At that point you can turn the bolt clockwise with your fingers with little chance of it cross threading.


I know some people will remove the caliper by removing the two slider pins. I don't do that and never have - mainly becasue I don't need to - I have to take my back wheel off every 5,000 miles for new tyres anyway, and for that I need to remove the bracket. But also - I have big hands and fingers and those bolts look awkward to replace.

For completeness and reference - the torque settings tables at the start of each chapter, and reproduced together for the entire bike in section 1, provide additional information not always found in the text.

1688893926339.png

The notes refer to a not-so-easy-to-find table at the start of the torque value section P 1-12 in mine.

1688894141097.png

So Note 2 applies to the sub-slide pin (the one screwed into the bracket) - Apply locking agent.
The 'New' icon ont he diagram I copied earlier - also seems to apply to the stopper bolt, not to the main slide pin.
 
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jfheath

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I spent ages trying to edit my earlier post - wondering why it would not let me do it - when I realised that I was trying to edit the quoted post in @etalors post.
You've managed to delete the opening quote line !
Still - I enjoyed the puzzle.
 

Mellow

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I spent ages trying to edit my earlier post - wondering why it would not let me do it - when I realised that I was trying to edit the quoted post in @etalors post.
You've managed to delete the opening quote line !
Still - I enjoyed the puzzle.
lol.. I edited and added the quote tag...
 
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Your first picture:

1688885746892.jpeg

That bolt is the rear caliper bracket stopper bolt. It screws into the swinging arm and slips through an oval shaped hole in the caliper bracket.

It stops the bracket from rotating around the axle when the brakes are applied. This has a torque of 69Nm, it is an ALOC bolt and the manual says to replace with new. I will clean mine up, apply some fresh loctite and re-use it a few times, as my tyres are changed every 5000 miles. But I always have a brand new one in stock, and the manual says to replace with new. I apply a smear of moly paste to the shaft ( not the threads), as it moves against the elongated hole with the different expansion rates of the bracket compared to the swinging arm.

When refitting, this bolt must be secured before the axle bolt is tightened.

----------

Your Second Picture - The Main Caliper Slider Pin

1688886155107.jpeg 1688892979851.png


This bolt is the main caliper slide pin. The green one in my diagram and is the one that is incorrectly labelled as requiring a torque of 69Nm in the manual. It is bolted onto the caliper itself, and generally, there is no need to remove it. It slides into the small rubber boot that is fitted to the bracket. The correct torque for this is 27Nm.
The smaller extract you can see the part of the caliper bracket where the pin slides in - outlined in green. The rubber boot is just visible at the open end of the green loop.

To remove the caliper, you need to remove the axle nut, remove the brake pads, remove the stopper bolt, top photo.
Push the axle part way through from the left - enough to clear the bracket, and lift the bracket and caliper up. It is restricted by the brake hoses. Be careful not to strain them. You can then slide the caliper away from the bracket. The caliper has to stay supported due to the hoses. The bracket comes off completely.

I know you have done some of this, but removing that main slider pin can be problematic.
Quite a few people on here have had problems with the bolt being cross-threaded and then not being parallel to the other slider pin - leaving the caliper unable to move freely towards and away from the brake disc. A posible reason for this may be due to thread damage casued by a previous owner using the wrong torque value on the diagram of 69Nm. Later versions of the manual may have corrected this - but the 2003, 2004 version is widely available (illegally) on line and that version contains the same error on the diagram as my official printed version.

If you do remove it - then when refitting put in the bolt up to the point where you would start to screw the bolt in, but instead, turn it gently anticlockwise. By gently holding the bolt agains the threads you can feel the point where the thread starts as you turn. The bolt 'clicks' as it drops by something around a mm - depending on the distance between the threads. At that point you can turn the bolt clockwise with your fingers with little chance of it cross threading.


I know some people will remove the caliper by removing the two slider pins. I don't do that and never have - mainly becasue I don't need to - I have to take my back wheel off every 5,000 miles for new tyres anyway, and for that I need to remove the bracket. But also - I have big hands and fingers and those bolts look awkward to replace.

For completeness and reference - the torque settings tables at the start of each chapter, and reproduced together for the entire bike in section 1, provide additional information not always found in the text.

1688893926339.png

The notes refer to a not-so-easy-to-find table at the start of the torque value section P 1-12 in mine.

1688894141097.png

So Note 2 applies to the sub-slide pin (the one screwed into the bracket) - Apply locking agent.
The 'New' icon on the diagram I copied earlier - also seems to apply to the stopper bolt, not to the main slide pin.
Thank You for your extensive and quite an informative reply. It did answer my question. Much appreciated!!

I did remove the rear caliper from the mounting bracket for cleaning purposes before putting in new pads. I did this to get a better angle to the pistons etc. To do this I removed the Rear caliper stopper bolt and the two slide pins. All the hoses remained connected and the caliper was supported at all times. Thankfully or by sheer luck, I did not look at the page 17-40, that has the incorrect torque for the main slide pin. I was somehow confusing the Rear caliper stopper bolt with the main slide pin, as I was looking at the diagram on Page 17-3 of the 2003-2005 manual. Everything got put back with the correct torque values.
 
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