Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 20??

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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

The Honda ST1300 will most likely be replaced with a new model around 2014. If so, then Honda may be well into the planning stages for the new design. In this short article, I will outline my view of what the replacement model should retain and change.

I?ve owned my 2007 Honda ST1300 for two years. Although I?ve only ridden it for just over 12,000 kilometres (parenting a young child keeps me off the bike more than I would like), I?ve ridden it through the kind of extreme weather that is common in the South Island of New Zealand. This has included riding for over 500k through continuous rain and a night ride in a southerly storm with a wind gust recorded near my home of 161kph/100mph.

My experience as an ST owner has been very much in line with other rider reports and the many excellent reviews of this bike. It does everything well that you could realistically want a big sports tourer to do. One review stated that although the ST1300 may not be at the very top of the list with respect to handling, aerodynamics, comfortable, performance, and styling when compared to the competition in the big sports tourer category, it ranks towards the top (first or second) in all of these areas. Before purchasing the bike I did a lot of market research. I won?t go into all the details here, suffice to say that it came down to a choice between the BMW1200RT and the Honda. Reading about the long-term reliability issues of the BMW and the absolutely legendary long-term reliability of the Honda ST1300 sealed the deal.

In short, the Honda ST1300 is a superb bike. If you buy one you won?t be disappointed (unless you buy it with completely unrealistic expectations- it doesn?t have the performance of a Fireblade nor the electronic gadgetry on the latest BMW1200RT).

Having said this, Honda has done remarkably little to update the ST1300, instead investing a lot into the VFR1200. It is due for replacement but will Honda get this right?

The Longitudinally Mounted VR Engine- Keep It!
As far as I am aware, the engine configuration on the ST is unique. You have to own one of these bikes to appreciate what an incredible engine this is. Beautifully smooth, with steady and predictable power delivery throughout the range, still more power than the 2012 BMW1200RT, and tremendous long-term reliability. I could go on but I know I?m preaching to the converted.

The key point for Honda to note is that this engine configuration should be retained in the ST?s replacement. I don?t want to see a larger version of the VFR 1200 engine- I do want an updated version of the current ST V4.

My only reservation is that if Honda stuff this up and shove a VFR engine in the replacement then it will help to keep up the price of used ST1300s (and reduce my desire to purchase the replacement ? saving me lots of dollars).

Aerodynamic Design- Less Wind Noise Please

Although the aerodynamic design of the ST1300 is excellent, especially with respect to maintaining a remarkable degree of stability in high wind conditions (meaning up to storm force), it isn?t as good as the BMW1200RT. A former BMW owner said that for him this was the main area in which the BMW outperformed the Honda- there is a lot more wind noise on the Honda. So there is room for improvement in this area.

Instrumentation
Please keep the analogue speedo and tachometer! I don?t care if some people think this will make the bike look retro- the analogue instruments look good and are really easy to read in all light conditions.

The electronic displays on the ST1300 are not easily readable in bright light conditions and when the rider is wearing sunglasses or using a tinted visor. Hopefully these displays will be improved in the replacement model and will be easier to read in a wider range of light conditions.

Heated Grips
The new model should, like the BMW RT, have reliable heated grips as standard, with the control mounted on the bars not the fairing. The Honda ST1300 is ultra reliable - the genuine Honda grips are not.

Six Speed Gearbox Please
There?s nothing wrong with the current five-gear setup, but it would be nice to have the extra gear for long distance highway riding.

Styling and Exhaust Placement
This is one area where there will be a wide range of preferences. To my eyes, the 2003-2004 BMW RTs are probably the best looking sport tourers ever built. The Honda ST1300 does not look as good as those BMW models, but I think it? still a nice looking bike compared to the current competition in this category.

There is, however, one thing upon which most ST1300 owners will agree- the bike looks ugly with the panniers removed. I love how much more like a sports bike the ST feels when you take off the panniers and the top box- it moves the centre of gravity a little further forward and even lower down in the bike- making it a joy to throw around on tight twisties.

The ugliness of the current ST without the panniers could be avoided if the replacement model follows the styling of the VFR800 and runs the exhaust pipes under the seat. If it does this, then when you take the panniers off the ST?s replacement, it will look like a sports bike rather than a piece of agricultural equipment!

Other Stuff
Improved shaft drive as per the VFR1200, make sure the thermostat doesn?t fail after 60,000 kilometres, slight weight reduction would be good, and the top box should be more easily and cheaply available than for the ST1300.

Summing Up
Overall, Honda should adopt a reasonably conservative approach to its design of the ST1300?s replacement. The ST1300 is a fantastic bike that is unique in important respects. The replacement should be based on a design that retains the ST?s main strengths, while improving and refining it to eliminate some of its weaknesses. In short, Honda should not replace the ST1300 with a completely different bike. BMW has been making small incremental adjustments to its RT models, and Honda should adopt a similar approach in its design of the ST?s replacement. Most importantly of all, it should retain the longitudinally mounted V4 engine configuration. If it fails to do this, then it will struggle to retain the loyalty of existing Honda ST owners.
Totaly agree with everything brian has said especialy a sixth gear. but also agree with other posts about inclusion of cruise control. My choice was also between the 1200RT BMW and the ST1300 But the unreliability of the BM swung me in favour of the ST So glad I did Hopefully Honda will be sensible with the ST replacement.
 
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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

Can't believe folks are still asking for a "sixth gear" when what they probably really want is a taller ratio final drive. A bike with 80+ ft/lbs of torque doesn't need more gears. Just 'cause the competition (including Harley which needs it even less) have six speeds...

(I'm going for the dual clutch auto on my next road bike.)
 
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Mellow

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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

Can't believe folks are still asking for a "sixth gear" when what they probably really want is a taller ratio final drive. A bike with 80+ ft/lbs of torque doesn't need more gears.

(I'm going for the dual clutch auto on my next road bike.)
Yeah, the Tenere has a 6th gear but not much different than the ST.. just another gear to get to that top ratio..

I'm really curious how well that DCT is, would love to try one out.. I haven't heard anyone say they didn't like it.
 
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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

Was in Tucson several weeks ago and spoke with a Honda salesman that I'd met back in Apr. following a trip to the VA. We'd discussed the NC700X DCT on my first visit however, I didn't have the opportunity to see one as this particular dealership hadn't yet received any of the new bikes; either with, or without the DCT. However, the salesman did make the comment that he wasn't prepared to like the DCT and didn't really see the need for it. During my recent visit they had one of the standard shift models on the floor. I asked the salesman if he'd had the chance to ride the DCT and what was the verdict. He responded that he'd ridden both, preferred the DCT and was completely blown away by it; which really surprised me based upon his previous comments.

I don't know about other areas of the country but here in AZ the supply of VFRs, STs and NC700Xs is sparse. Was in Phoenix on business last week and went to 2 dearships, hoping to see a VFR, or NC700X with DCT, but there were no VFRs on the floor (and the staff indicated that they hadn't seen very many of them), only 1 NC700X and 1 ST (although I did see an 06 at a Kawasaki dealership that had been traded, which was in sad, sad shape). This jives with my trip to Tucson when I went to 2 dealerships and saw no VFRs, 1 ST and 1 NC700X. There just doesn't seem to be a lot of effort to get the products out there. Suppose it's all related to the economy.
 

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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

I'm really curious how well that DCT is, would love to try one out.. I haven't heard anyone say they didn't like it.
I'm still not sure I'd buy a DCT equipped bike (I might) but on the VFR it certainly was a very slick system. Say what you will, it works.
 
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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

Any bike intended for the 2014 model year would almost certainly be already set in stone, with a few well-tested mules and prototypes already in existence somewhere. The planning and tooling up for production phase would have to be well underway at this point. I'm not saying it isn't happening, but if the 2014 model year is the target for release, it's probably a little late to submit our wish lists to Ma Honda.
 

Darth rider

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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

K1600's are big fat pigs
I am sorry you feel that way. I like my big fat pig, buy the way and it has lots more power than those mentioned, although it cost about the same. Hopefully if and when Honda comes out with a new ST, it will be as reliable as the previous one. We will see.
 
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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

I very much doubt that they would skip Milan and introduce a new ST in Atlanta. Mother Honda might do something like that with the next generation 'Wing, because the 'Wing is a biked designed, engineered and built for the American market, with other markets getting it as an afterthought. 'Tis the reverse with the ST. The EU (May it's Days be Numbered) is pushing for all M/C to have ABS standard. 'Tis only a recommendation currently, and I wouldn't be surprised if they decide to phase in a mandate, starting with high cost/power bikes (i.e. exactly where the ST1300 sits in the market) first. The upshot is, the European market drives the design and production of the ST. Next gen ST will have ABS, standard. IF it's coming this year (spring), it will be announced in Milan. Such a move would frost some folks at Triumph, where they're likely hoping for a year or two w/o a new competing bike from the Japanese. (The FJR isn't new, it's a substantial refresh.)

Also, don't forget, there's a new RT waiting to step on stage, now that the boxer has gone liquid cooled.

Like some others, I expect they'll use the VFR1200 platform, and I'm okay with that. Aside from the obvious production/engineering advantages of commonality inherent in using the VFR1200 engine, the architecture of the engine means a narrower bike between the legs, which means an easier reach for the under-legged amongst us.
 

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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

I think you're right.. Europe always gets the new stuff first, I'm okay with that as it gives them time to work the bugs out for us so it just may be Milan when the first spark is seen...
 
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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

Yeah, the Tenere has a 6th gear but not much different than the ST.. just another gear to get to that top ratio..

I'm really curious how well that DCT is, would love to try one out.. I haven't heard anyone say they didn't like it.
Unless you are ready to buy, it just might make you sorry you did it!
 

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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

Unless you are ready to buy, it just might make you sorry you did it!
LOL.. yeah, you'd think I'd learn by now.
 
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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

So who is the official ST-Owners reporter for the Milan event?
 

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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

So who is the official ST-Owners reporter for the Milan event?
Lol I Wish.... But, I'd have to come back with good news or sta..........hmmmmmm
 

rcb

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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

I just wonder what the maintenance would be like for the individual on a DCT. At least it's not a CVT. I kept fearing they were going to try that on a bike.
 
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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

Honda has been putting CVTs in Civics for several years, appear to work fine with a metal belt. I think the DN-01 is CVT(?).
 

Blrfl

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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

I just wonder what the maintenance would be like for the individual on a DCT.
How much maintenance do you have to do on your single-clutch transmission?

--Mark
 
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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

Honda has been putting CVTs in Civics for several years, appear to work fine with a metal belt. I think the DN-01 is CVT(?).
The DN-01 uses what Honda was calling the HFT (Human Friendly Transmission). Think of that as the first version of the DCT.
HFT transmission is a continuously variable, hydromechanical design that automatically and seamlessly changes drive ratios to produce strong, smooth acceleration. Unlike conventional belt-drive designs, HFT is compact, quiet, no scheduled maintenance, and features two automatic modes and a six-speed manual mode with push-button shifting.

Which brings up another point. How come the scooters don't use a metal belt in their CVT? Many models of cars are using CVTs with metal belts.
 
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Blrfl

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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

DIY maintenance on a DCT? Remember that it is an automatic transmission. If you know how to work on one of those, then the DCT should probably be a piece of cake (pie?). Remember that it is different mechanically than a car transmission. It's also a lot smaller. I have a feeling that unless you are well-trained in transmission maintenance, the DCT might just be one of those "Black-box items" you take to the dealership for maintenance.
I disagree. A six-speed DCT is mechanically much closer to a conventional manual than it is to the automatics you see in cars: it's a pair of smaller three-speed manuals fed from one input shaft by way of two clutches. The clutches are either driven by a common gear ([-]which I think is what Honda's design does[/-] it's stacked clutches) or with two stacked clutch packs and a pair of concentric shafts that drive the gear trains. None of that is really anything new, unproven or overcomplicated. Other than that and the use of a computer and actuators to push everything around, these things shouldn't be any more difficult to work on. They should also be a lot more reliable because they're less prone to wear caused by abuse or rider sloppiness. (Not that motorcycle transmissions are famous for failing as it is.)

I remember when manually-shifted automatics started to appear and everyone had their shorts in a knot because they thought it added all sorts of complexity and things that could break and would make them financially enslaved to their dealers. The reality was that these transmissions were already computer-controlled, and adding Tiptronic/AutoStick/whatever was a few switches that told the computer to change gears when told instead of automagically.

--Mark
 
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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

DCT, CVT, Hyrdaulic "HFT" should all be reliable and functional. Deba has DCT in her Acura, almost never notice it. I've used the manual mode a couple times just for fun and it works a charm. Also, I use it to drop a gear manually leaving Henderson on US-93 headed south, just enuff down hill to need to hold the car back on the heavily patrolled 45 speed limit and I don't like to ride the brakes. Works well in that environment.

Ruckus, on changing the belt: Most quads have CVT, never hear of anyone changing those belts. Are folks failing to perform required maintenance?

(D'Oh :doh1:, never mind. A quick Google search tells the tale. :D)
 
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rcb

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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

My family went through 3 CVT transmissions in cars. I'm not buying one until they make it much easier to change belts. Saturn Vue, Dodge Caliber, Nissan Altima. The problem is they can't deal with mass/acceleration over the long run. Fine if you are driving by yourself, not so great if you have a family and/or carpool. If there was some fuel efficiency gain to be had,sure. Sadly the cars today aren't really going up in fuel mileage. My old 94 sentra would get 40mpg on the interstate and mid to high 30's around town. The newer one's haven't superseded it, in fact much worse. My friend's 2002 gets in the low 30s.

In a scooter, not much of a problem. On a performance or sport touring bike? I wouldn't mind so much if you can just pop a cover off, release a tensioner and replace the belt. That might even be an improvement in general. A standard manual transmission works fine and is easy to work on. Automatics less so. The newer auto's even less so.

What I fear is what's happened to cars here in the US. Half of them you can't even get manuals in anymore. I understand convenience, but there is something to be said about efficiency and reliability. But I'm also the type that doesn't like radio's on his motorcycle, so that is what it is. Is the DCT going to solve any issues?

And regarding CVT's in ATVs, we've had problems with ours in the past. Not too hard to fix, but not really the best for larger ATVs (we use them around our land for work). But as I mentioned, if they make them easy to change, I've really got no complaints, other than efficiency/durability lost in the exchange.
 
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