Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 20??

T_C

Joined
Mar 8, 2012
Messages
4,338
Location
St. Louis, MO
Bike
2005 St1300
STOC #
8568
Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

That being said, a CVT on a bike against the same bike with a manual transmission won't compare in acceleration performance.
Are you saying the manual is faster or slower?

If properly programmed and strong enough to withstand it, a CVT would allow the maximum acceleration possible out of a motorized vehicle. Keeping the engine in it's max power band and not wasting time on shifting gears once the tires are hooked up and your are past the point of burning rubber.
 

dduelin

Tune my heart to sing Thy grace
Site Supporter
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
Messages
9,685
Location
Jacksonville
Bike
GL1800 R1200RT NC700
2024 Miles
008131
STOC #
6651
The DN-01 uses what Honda was calling the HFT (Human Friendly Transmission). Think of that as the first version of the DCT. The problem with putting an automatic transmission on a motorcycle was the transmission generated a lot of gyroscopic forces. Not a good thing to have one's motorcycle want to sudden lean in one direction or the other depending on whether you are accelerating or decelerating. The HFT and the second-generation DCT solved this problem.

There are a couple of companies that replace the transmission of final drives of motorcycles over to CVT transmissions. Their primary customers are people who have either had a stroke or lost a limb that results in them being unable to shift gears using a manual transmission. Performance on CVTs is actually better than most people expect. The Suzuki Bergman 650 accelerates like a terraphobic rocket. A pair of senior riders in RI like riding their Bergman 650s to Las Vegas each year. They don't ride there to gamble, they do it to embarrass bikers along the way. A couple of old men on scooters pull up to a traffic light on scooters, and completely blow away some arrogant V-twin rider with ease. They don't call the Bergman "The Harley Eater" for nothing.

That being said, a CVT on a bike against the same bike with a manual transmission won't compare in acceleration performance. Also, with any automatic, you are going to give up efficiency in exchange for convenience.

Do-It-Yourself maintenance on a CVT isn't all that difficult. The lifespan of a belt on my scooter is roughly not quite twice that of a set of tires. While Honda says swap it out every 12,000 miles, I push it until I'm between 13K or 14K, and I'll take my scooter off the road if I let it get close to 15K. You really don't want to force a belt past 25% of its life expectancy. They fail in a fairly spectacular fashion when they are pushed too far?not as exciting as a tire failing, but it's a real mess to clean up and fix when it happens. I consider belts to be a high maintenance item like tires and oil. They have short lifespans and must be changed, whether you want to or not.

DIY maintenance on a DCT? Remember that it is an automatic transmission. If you know how to work on one of those, then the DCT should probably be a piece of cake (pie?). Remember that it is different mechanically than a car transmission. It's also a lot smaller. I have a feeling that unless you are well-trained in transmission maintenance, the DCT might just be one of those "Black-box items" you take to the dealership for maintenance.

The DCT has gotten very positive reviews. I have yet to hear anyone pan it negatively. It's most obvious use is on a touring bike, where not having to work a clutch constantly in heavy traffic is a positive. Any company knows you don't put new and potentially buggy technology into your flagship product. Your customers and the press will vilify you. It's tough to recover from such a faux pas. So a wise company puts this new technology in the lower-end and cheaper products for real world testing and tweak it until all the bugs have been worked out. THEN you put it into production for the high-end flagship products.

My guess is Honda wants to use this transmission in both the GL and the ST. The VFR and now the NT are the testbeds for the DCT. The problem is, the DCT hit the markets at the same time the American and World economies collapsed, greatly limiting sales on luxury and recreational vehicles. It's likely they don't feel they have enough real world data collected on DCT performance. In light of this, the release of a new bike using this transmission is likely to be delayed until they are satisfied with the real world performance results and the market improves enough to support profitable sales of a new bike.

If I was running a motorcycle company today, where would I want to put my product development money? In a bike optimized for commuting. Gas prices are rising and it is getting expensive to drive to work. A good bike with range, efficiency and comfort for long distance riding in multiple weather conditions to replace a car for going to work would be a good market gamble. (By the way, a bike with such features also lends itself well to sport-touring!) It's pretty obvious why Honda is pushing the NT700V as a new sport-touring bike.
I am pretty sure Honda has discontinued pushing the NT700V as a new sport touring bike. It was discontinued in Honda's line up last year in the US.

I do not have the DCT in my NC700X but IIRC the only maintenance required over the life of the unit is to regularly replace a small filter under a side cover. Demand globally for the NC platform is very strong on its first year and as a company with vision I think they believe that in the future motorcycles that do not require shifting will be in demand. The US is a dying market for Honda but there is a whole generation of riders in India and China coming up on less than 250cc scooters and motorcycles that will advance up the displacement ranks just as we did in the US, UK, and Europe a generation ago. Shiftless motorcycles will be huge in emerging markets and Honda will provide them.
 

Mellow

Joe
Admin
Joined
Dec 1, 2004
Messages
18,899
Age
60
Bike
'21 BMW R1250RT
2024 Miles
000540
Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

I am pretty sure Honda has discontinued pushing the NT700V as a new sport touring bike. It was discontinued in Honda's line up last year in the US.

I do not have the DCT in my NC700X but IIRC the only maintenance required over the life of the unit is to regularly replace a small filter under a side cover. Demand globally for the NC platform is very strong on its first year and as a company with vision I think they believe that in the future motorcycles that do not require shifting will be in demand. The US is a dying market for Honda but there is a whole generation of riders in India and China coming up on less than 250cc scooters and motorcycles that will advance up the displacement ranks just as we did in the US, UK, and Europe a generation ago. Shiftless motorcycles will be huge in emerging markets and Honda will provide them.
Just because it's not showing for a 2012 or 2013 model doesn't mean much... the Wing has skipped years and their site shows a 2013 Wing now... there's a 2012 NC700X but no 2013 shown so does that mean it's discontinued as well? WE have no way of telling what they will manufacture until THEY tell us. Just guessing 'til then... might be accurate but not confirmed, at least I haven't seen any news releases from Honda stating so.
 

Bones

Your Humble Scribe
Joined
Dec 6, 2004
Messages
4,904
Age
60
Location
western Mass
Bike
2014 BMW R1200RT
STOC #
5575
Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

So who is the official ST-Owners reporter for the Milan event?
I'll go. Joe, can I just send all the bills directly to you? :rolleyes:
 

Mellow

Joe
Admin
Joined
Dec 1, 2004
Messages
18,899
Age
60
Bike
'21 BMW R1250RT
2024 Miles
000540
Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

I'll go. Joe, can I just send all the bills directly to you? :rolleyes:
Sure... send as many as you like :rofl1:
 

dduelin

Tune my heart to sing Thy grace
Site Supporter
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
Messages
9,685
Location
Jacksonville
Bike
GL1800 R1200RT NC700
2024 Miles
008131
STOC #
6651
Just because it's not showing for a 2012 or 2013 model doesn't mean much... the Wing has skipped years and their site shows a 2013 Wing now... there's a 2012 NC700X but no 2013 shown so does that mean it's discontinued as well? WE have no way of telling what they will manufacture until THEY tell us. Just guessing 'til then... might be accurate but not confirmed, at least I haven't seen any news releases from Honda stating so.
I think because the thread took a turn toward shiftless transmissions I think Ruckus meant the new DCT equipped NC700 instead of NT700V as the new bike. I could be wrong.
 

Mellow

Joe
Admin
Joined
Dec 1, 2004
Messages
18,899
Age
60
Bike
'21 BMW R1250RT
2024 Miles
000540
Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

I don't know... I'm starting to get confused.. LOL
 

dduelin

Tune my heart to sing Thy grace
Site Supporter
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
Messages
9,685
Location
Jacksonville
Bike
GL1800 R1200RT NC700
2024 Miles
008131
STOC #
6651
Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

I am under the understanding that a properly tuned CVT is faster accelerating than a manual because the engine can be held at a constant rpm and if that rpm is at peak torque or hp it out performs a manual where the rpms are rising and falling above and below that certain optimal rpm as different gears are selected. Automatic transmissions have long been favored at the drag strip because there is little to no interruption to power delivered to the rear wheel. The DCT concept utilizes the best of a manual and a ttorque converter automatic transmission. Many gears to efficiently use the power band of the engine and dual sets of gears with two always selected and engaged so there is no interruption of power to the driven wheel(s).
 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
501
Location
San Diego
Bike
GL1800
Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

You're right, the 2013 NC700X adventure bike is the 700 with the DCT.

I didn't mean to get the thread hijacked onto a manual vs. automatic discussion. I feel that an automatic transmission in a touring or sport touring bike is the most obvious feature to add to a new model. I'm willing to bet when Honda announces new touring and sport touring models, they will feature the DCT as an option.

For efficiency however, a manual transmission will always win.
I think a DCT option is a given as both the VFR1200F and Crosstourer1200 have DCT. I think the VFR even had it tweaked a bit for the newest year model. Just about all reviews of the DCT on the Crosstourer Forum are positive and the Crosstourer is a better tour bike than the VFR for many reasons.

1200cc would be fantastic and has plenty of power ....I suspect it would be detuned on the ST variant just like the Crosstourer.

I would love a choice between the ST or Crosstourer 1200.......but give me at least one of them. When/IF they/IT comes not sure what I will do with my 1800 or 800VFR???
 

dduelin

Tune my heart to sing Thy grace
Site Supporter
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
Messages
9,685
Location
Jacksonville
Bike
GL1800 R1200RT NC700
2024 Miles
008131
STOC #
6651
Trust me, I speak from experience. A manual transmission would leave my belt-driven CVT in the dust.:sbike1:

And in the "Oh! Crap!" category, all this talk I am reminded that I must order a new drive belt and swap this one out as it is at its max-life right now.:doh1:
I don't think it is accurate to judge the efficiency of the CVT transmission by how it operates in an Elite 80 like mine or perhaps your Big Ruckus. On a technical basis my premise is accurate.
 

BakerBoy

It's all small stuff.
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
5,446
Location
Golden, Colorado
STOC #
1408
Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

... Deba has DCT in her Acura...
Which model Acura George? I didn't raelize that Acura has DCT in use in cars, but I did find that Acura is flirting with DCT by showing it in their NSX and RLX prototypes).
 
Joined
Feb 5, 2005
Messages
8,537
Age
77
Location
Kingman, Arizona
Bike
2000 ST1100 ABS TCS
STOC #
004
Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

My error. Her's is a 2008 TSX five speed Auto. It's not a DCT but does have manual shift ability. Still works a charm.
 
Joined
Jul 24, 2006
Messages
914
Location
not quite Columbian Spoon, UT
Bike
'06 ST1300A
Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

For efficiency however, a manual transmission will always win.
Not so. A properly engineered and programmed modern DCT is consistently faster shifting than the best rider or driver. Which is why they are used universally in Formula 1. When in "automatic" mode, it is also going to be more fuel efficient.

DCT is the most fuel efficient, power efficient and fastest transmission around. It's downsides are somewhat increased complexity, cost, wieght, and relative inexperience engineering them. Compared to the maturity of standard manuals, torque converter autos, and CVTs', the widespread use of DCT's is a mere baby. For an ICE m/c beyond the basic level, they're likely the way of the future.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 5, 2005
Messages
8,537
Age
77
Location
Kingman, Arizona
Bike
2000 ST1100 ABS TCS
STOC #
004
Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

The above is not contradictory. A DCT IS a manual transmission. Clutch, gears, shifter. Only the shifter is attached to a 'puter 'stead of a human.
 
Joined
Feb 5, 2005
Messages
8,537
Age
77
Location
Kingman, Arizona
Bike
2000 ST1100 ABS TCS
STOC #
004
Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

"Lock Up" automatics approach the same efficiency too, with the torque converter out'a the equation once once the system reaches cruise.
 
Joined
May 26, 2005
Messages
91
Age
70
Location
Fairfield Glade TN
Bike
2004 GL1800
Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

On the positive side you end up with a bike that . . . doesn't break down, is reliable and everything it has works well for a smaller niche group of riders. Hopefully I'll be able to find another ST1300 should anything happen to my current STead. I'm guessing there are still a few in crates stashed around the country. :)

Shuey

PS: BTW, just got an iPhone 4s at a price 75% lower than it was just a few months ago!
They are not in crates but Southern Honda has about 12..2012s..5 are ABS, 7 are not. i think you can get the ABS around 15,700 ..collectors price
 

gmast1100

Gettin old sux
Joined
Dec 26, 2008
Messages
1,554
Age
76
Location
Blairsville, GA
Bike
2016 Kawasaki Versys
STOC #
297
Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

They are not in crates but Southern Honda has about 12..2012s..5 are ABS, 7 are not. i think you can get the ABS around 15,700 ..collectors price
I'm thinkin that the 7 that 'are not' are not 2012's. All 2012's are ABS IIRC???????
 

T_C

Joined
Mar 8, 2012
Messages
4,338
Location
St. Louis, MO
Bike
2005 St1300
STOC #
8568
Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

Trust me, I speak from experience. A manual transmission would leave my belt-driven CVT in the dust.
One CVT experience does not mean it is the optimal CVT.

As mentioned a computer controlled CVT could hold the engine at max torque or horsepower depending on which acceleration mode you are after. Rising and falling RPM's on shifting gears is not able to do keep such control.

An automatic with the torque converter replaced by a clutch was the optimal configuration for a few drag racers I know. Ford made one at one point, a C4S. My preference was the FMX, but I digress.
 
Joined
May 26, 2005
Messages
91
Age
70
Location
Fairfield Glade TN
Bike
2004 GL1800
Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014? A short article with responses.

What Yuma said echoes the same comments I've heard from salespeople and technicians who have tried the DCT. The most critical review came from a salesman for a regional, multi-brand dealer (Bettencourts) who admitted he wasn't exactly eager to try it, being a high-end sport bike kind of rider. When he finally got onto the bike and tried it, he was utterly blown away by its performance. It worked far better than he expected. He didn't feel he had enough time on it to make any accurate, technical statements, but felt that a highly technical rider might prefer a more traditional clutch as that would give such a rider a greater sense of command. However, he figured his next bike would have a DCT.

I'm guessing that riders who do a lot of touring and thusly find themselves mixed in with traffic might find the DCT a godsend. Think of being in a traffic jam, and the next exit is five miles away?
In response to the new bike with DCT... it has been tweaked from its first debut and is better and smoother according to new articles I read.
 
Top Bottom