RyanF9 learns to ride like a cop!

[MidLife]

....notice he had to jerk his body weight against the bike to the side....

That was the whole point. Glad you got it!

......and how quickly the bike recovered and straightened itself back upright.....

You got this one also. This is precisely what he was trying to demonstrate. Trying to mimic the MSF type contersteered evasive maneuver he demonstrates later in the vid.

If you pay close attention to the slomo part, you might also be able to observe the same self induced countersteer that happens with a handsfree bicycle turn.

If you look very closely, you should be able to see that the front first starts to point in the direction opposite to the lean before it falls back into the turn.

The bike countersteers, although there is no direct input on the bar. Clearly showing that countersteering is part of the turn initiation, but that there is more than one way to induce the countersteer.

If you would like to see a demonstration of a handsfree turn without the bike straightening back up, go to 1:05

When all is said and done, regardless of the relocation of body weight by the rider, once the new center of gravity is established, the lean angle and turning radius are still controlled by applying handlebar torque.

Are you trying to say you keep pushing the handlebar throughout the turn? Or something else?

 

[MidLife]

Practical? No.

Agreed. Also what I said.

Body lean is fine for turning on a bicycle (and will still induce the bicycle to countersteer), but not practical as primary mode for initiating a turn on a heavy bike.

However, as stated by Nick Ienatsch, who has the @Sadlsor seal of approval, there is more than just bar pressure to flick the bike around, even though bar pressure is primary.

 

[MidLife]

The "funny" part about KC's vid is that he first builds a contraption supposed to prove that body shifting does absolutely nothing to steer the bike.

Then at 2:30, he has a bike weaving back and forth with body steering alone!

For sure, body steering will not be the main method for turning a heavy bike, but clearly has an input in the process.

What is excellent about the vid however, is that it clearly demonstrates that just like turning by pushing the bar, body steering also induces countersteering.

That's precisely what I was trying to convey to Mr. @Larry Fine, but I never seem to find the right phrasing to get through to him.

Hopefully Keith Code will.

 

[Larry Fine]

Are you trying to say you keep pushing the handlebar throughout the turn? Or something else?

No, I'm saying that, regardless of your body position, whether hanging off inside of, upright outside of, or in line with the bike, once you're in position, you still control the turn radius by applying steering torque.

If you're hanging off like a racer, you need to apply torque in the straightening-out direction so your body weight doesn't pull the bike into the pavement.

If you're counter-balancing, you need to apply steering torque in the lean-over-farther direction to counter the lean your body weight would otherwise cause.

In other words, even if you shift your body weight to either side, you still must then apply steering torque to overcome the turning that leaning alone would cause.

If your weight is centered over the bike's weight, then the combined center of gravity is directly above the contact patches, and steering effort should be neutral.

You push the handlebar into the direction of turn to increase the lean and decrease the radius, and in the other direction to decrease the lean and increase the radius.

If your steering is neutral, a constant radius (for a given speed) should be maintained with no steering torque applied, although most bikes will straighten up a bit.

Whether you're conscious of it or not, counter-steering still happens. When you're aware of it, you can steer a bike completely independently of weight distribution.

Even if you hang off to one side with all of your weight, you can still steer. The weight bias must be overcome with a steering-torque bias, but you can still steer in either direction.

I steer 99% by counter-steering alone. I have my rear suspension adjusted so equal force is required to lean the bike over as is required to stand the bike back up.

 

[Larry Fine]

That's precisely what I was trying to convey to Mr. @Larry Fine, but I never seem to find the right phrasing to get through to him.

Hopefully Keith Code will.

I've watched that video before and agree with it. What do you feel I'm missing?

 

[MidLife]

I've watched that video before and agree with it. What do you feel I'm missing?

That body steering induces countersteering, without manual input.

My apologies if I missed that you acknowledged that before.

 

[Larry Fine]

That body steering induces countersteering, without manual input.

My apologies if I missed that you acknowledged that before.

Absolutely, it does. That's how unaware riders steer.

No apologies necessary, whether we agree or not on something.

 

[MidLife]

That's how unaware riders steer.

Not all. Many just countersteer without any awareness of the branding or physics. They learned how to do it instinctively on their bicycle and kept going on their bikes.

Then you have people on the opposite sides of the spectrum.

Those like you who are perfectly happy to do it all with bar pushing only.

Then those who can do it without any bar input at all (but with the bike still countersteering on its own to go into the turn, as demonstrated in Keith Code's video).

Like this guy at 0:50 for instance

or this guy here at 0:40

And then you have the advanced riders who know how to combine a touch of knee and peg pressure, and body steering with their bar input to achieve precision and smoothness throughout the turns, as expressed by Nick Ienatsch :

Nobody at the top is flicking the bike around with bar pressure only

 

[Nexus]

Not all. Many just countersteer without any awareness of the branding or physics. They learned how to do it instinctively on their bicycle and kept going on their bikes.

I concur.
I counter-steer just when going straight. Let me explain: My bike tends to drift to the right. Probably due to the fact that I tend to keep my right bag loaded and the left one pretty empty. For other possible reasons, I refer you to Max McAllister YT video:

When I let go the handlebars, I have to lean to the left to keep the bike going going straight. Since that would be uncomfortable to have to do that all of the time, I pull the left and/or push the right handle bar slightly so as not to be in a constant lean. It just comes naturally (or maybe it was learned as you say).

I'm sure most are subconciously doing tiny counter-steers just to keep the bike on their desired path.

 

[Sadlsor]

However, as stated by Nick Ienatsch, who has the @Sadlsor seal of approval, there is more than just bar pressure to flick the bike around, even though bar pressure is primary.

I'll also add that Keith Code has my "seal of approval", not that he needs it, and not that it means anything. I have his books (and I've even read them), a video, and I've taken his Level 1 class which was an eye-opener.
For several reasons, I simply decided not to wade into this discussion perhaps again due to RiderCoach training... "don't go down the rabbit hole. they learn more by riding and by DOING it. they'll figure it out." And good golly, nearly all of the students actually do figure it out.
In the big picture, I see the comments here as variations on a theme, not so much "that's just wrong" and not so much "that's the only way".
It IS a good thing, in my never-to-be-humble opinion, to actually think about these mundane actions that we do all the time, just to understand in each of our own ways, what is actually happening to the bike with our inputs. The cerebral exercise can only serve to heighten our understanding and our awareness, way above and beyond the "sit here, twist that."
Can we all agree on that much?

 

[ST1100Y]

In the big picture, I see the comments here as variations on a theme, not so much "that's just wrong" and not so much "that's the only way".

A lot depends on the actual situation, the surface/conditions, which motorcycle, the payload, your stance, how your ergos fit the bike, etc...
Like probably we all ave trained to use only two fingers on clutch and front brake lever... well in some situations you'll have to alter that...

 

[Larry Fine]

Then you have people on the opposite sides of the spectrum.

Those like you who are perfectly happy to do it all with bar pushing only.

I did not mean to suggest that only counter-steering is or should be done. I do indeed move my weight around, too, but my legs are not strong enough to be constantly moving my butt off to either side.

I am not a racer, nor do I attempt to ride like one.

 

[Grand Rouge]

Counter Steering, Leaning, Body Position, Physics etc. 20 minute video.....good humo(u)r and presentation I think....

How to use Counter Steering to Lean and Turn Your Motorcycle - YouTube

This Influencer is in Russia. I have been a follower for a few years.

I have been riding since 1979. Have taken lots of courses......but....always learning and practicing (per Moto Jitsu, Keith Code etc)

 

[MidLife]

When I let go the handlebars, I have to lean to the left to keep the bike going going straight.

Max says that often too much weight in one pannier can cause the pull, so what about just adding weight in the other one?

 

[Nexus]

Max says that often too much weight in one pannier can cause the pull, so what about just adding weight in the other one?

Yeah, I could do that. I just like keeping my "always stuff" (tools, rain gear, etc..) on that side 'cuz there's a good chance that I'll be on the side of the road if/whenI need 'em and it's a bit safer to be digging into the right pannier in that situation. I keep the left side for the temporary stuff (groceries, etc..). I just live with it.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

I just live with it.

Do an experiment for your own curiosity. Completely empty both panniers and go for a test ride. I'll bet that it still wonders to the right.