RyanF9 learns to ride like a cop!

[ST1100Y]

The difference in "respect" for motorcycle between the USA and Europe where I ride (France, Northern Italy, Austria, Germany and Switzerland) is indeed worlds apart. European car drivers keep out for you, move over to let you pass, don't get rattled if you go to the head of a stopped line of traffic and are willing to share the road in a way that works for everyone. It is a much more pleasurable riding experience and safer as a result.

Well, there restrictions...
What you describe applies to France, Italy, Spain, Portugal and pretty much Scotland as well...
Especially obnoxious are German drivers (ze Passat Estate swerves right into you) wherever encountered, to a degree also Dutch...

 

[Larry Fine]

Except for the fact that countersteering is required at ANY speed to at least initiate a turn, I get your point. Your speed determines how long (duration) the countersteering needs to be held.

I've had people disagree with me when I tell them that counter-steering is effective even at a walking pace.

 

[Sadlsor]

To experience what Dave is talking about in post #38, consider taking the MSF Advanced RiderCourse, and / or read the great book by Nick Ienatsch, I think called Sportbike Riding Techniques, or similar.
EDIT: Sport-Riding Techniques is the actual title.

 

[MidLife]

The only thing that I can see in that video that might be controversial is that it doesn’t make clear that counterbalancing is necessary only at slow speeds when the maneuvers performed between the cones are at slow speeds where there’s not enough centrifugal force to balance the motorcycle.

He doesn't say it is necessary at higher speeds either. Your choice, totally!

 

[MidLife]

I've had people disagree with me when I tell them that counter-steering is used even at a walking pace.

Like this guy, maybe?

Motorcycle Tips and Techniques

Hundreds of articles on Motorcycle Safety/Dynamics and accident case studies

www.msgroup.org

 

[Larry Fine]

Like this guy, maybe?

After just reading through it quickly, I say he's pointing out a difference that really isn't a difference.

As I'm stopping, I can choose which way the bike will lean, or just keep it upright, by counter-steering.

And racer's hang off by counter-counter-steering, keeping the bike from falling over more than it is.

 

[MidLife]

I've had people disagree with me when I tell them that counter-steering is effective even at a walking pace.

No wonder there are people disagreeing on that.

There is so much misinformation out there. Even course material that is erroneous. Not good!

Motorcycle Counter Steering Guide | TEAM Arizona

Are you in need of some basic motorbike steering information? If so, call TEAM Arizona for more info or register for a class online @ motorcycletraining.com.

motorcycletraining.com

.

 

[Valker]

...except....that counterbalancing and countersteering are two different things.

I totally misread that then. My reading mind said "countersteering" when he typed "Counterbalancing". Sorry, my fault.

 

[Sadlsor]

Countersteering has always been a tough subject to cover.
It's all pure physics, there is some ambiguity to the extent people understand or don't understand physics.
In the end, though, we don't "truly" have to understand it, do we? We all do it at some point (at most points?), so ultimately isn't it more important that we actually accept it?
I'm speaking rhetorically, because we were encouraged to NOT try to explain countersteering in any detail while coaching the Basic RiderCourse, due to the likelihood of falling into the rabbit hole and wasting time that should be used for getting the students on the bike and RIDING.
They figure it out better by doing it, than overthinking and talking about it.
But that's for the BRC, and we're not in a BRC, are we?
Carry on, while I get some more popcorn...

 

[Larry Fine]

In my opinion, it doesn't matter whether you lean first or apply steering torque first, what you're doing is steering the front (and then the rear) tire's contact patch out from and then back under the center of gravity of the bike and rider combined.

It doesn't matter how slow you're going. Let's say you want to walk your bike in a left turn. If it starts to lean too far to the left, you'll turn the bars to the left to get the tires back under the bike, which if you continue, would become a right turn.

Even unicycle riders use counter-steering, and they go way less than 12 mph. The only direct control they have is to steer the direction of, and propel the tire relative to their center of gravity. If they want to make a right turn, they have to steer the wheel left.

By the way, it works with bicycles, too.

 

[Valker]

If you want to read the best physics explanation of countersteering on a single track vehicle (bicycle specifically), it was written by the Wright Brothers-yes, THOSE Wright Brothers. You'll have to search to find it.

 

[the Ferret]

I actually had a guy come from Chicago to go to a CB 1100 rally with me down in Va at the Back of the Dragon. He was going to spend the night at my house and we would ride down the next day. I met him at the Indiana/Ohio border and led him to my house in Ohio. The last stretch to my house is an 8-mile long curvy road. I rode easy but noticed I kept losing him in my mirrors. I'd slow down and he'd eventually catch up. When we got to my house I asked him about it and he said he lived in Chicago and had never ridden on curves. I said we are going to one of the curviest roads in the country, and you need to learn how to corner quickly. I told him I'd try and teach him and after dinner we went out on a loop around my house that is about 30 miles long and has about 200 curves on it. I explained to him about pushing on the right bar to go right and the left bar to go left and he said.... I kid you not.... "Oh, that makes no sense at all". So we start out and he's missing turns, so we stop in the road and again I said if you find yourself going wide in a right turn, push harder on the right handlebar, and vice versa for a left hand curve. We take off again and he's missing curves. So, I stop him in the road and I said "listen if you keep crossing the centerline, you are going to die". He never did get it. The next day we ride down to the rally, mostly freeway. The following day at the rally we are riding the back of the Dragon and you guessed it, he crashed. Luckily, he didn't die, but he did bend up his CB 1100 some and caused 2 others to crash as well. He stayed at the motel for the rest of the rally.

 

[Larry Fine]

Too much bike for his experience.

 

[MidLife]

Even unicycle riders use counter-steering....

From Ryan counterbalancing to unicycle countersteering. Fascinating!

Many papers on the physics of countersteering on two wheelers, would appreciate reference to one for unicycles. Thanks.

 

[MidLife]

Riding like a Cop.....

Was talking to one while the dealer was working on his Wing, was curious about his limp.

He had had two very hard accidents, close to dying both times, long rehabs to get back to riding.

None of this great training helped him at all.

In both cases he was hit standing still.....working escort.....at a funeral.
.

 

[ST1100Y]

Besides the actual skill-set, some further, mental pointers:

Motorcycle roadcraft: the police rider's... by Mares, Penny

Buy Motorcycle roadcraft: the police rider's handbook New ed., 2013 by Mares, Penny, Police Foundation, Coyne, Philip (ISBN: 9780117081888) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

 

[Nexus]

Besides the actual skill-set, some further, mental pointers:

Motorcycle roadcraft: the police rider's... by Mares, Penny

Buy Motorcycle roadcraft: the police rider's handbook New ed., 2013 by Mares, Penny, Police Foundation, Coyne, Philip (ISBN: 9780117081888) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

Like the fact that it's a Pan European on the cover!

 

[ST Gui]

In both cases he was hit standing still.....working escort.....at a funeral.

So obriously

None of this great training helped him at all.

 

[DannoXYZ]

Try pushing your bike around garage. Absolutely ZERO countresteering to make it turn. In fact, the more you turn the steering, the more bike turns in that direction. Full-lock gives tightest turning radius in direction steering is aimed...

Countresteering is 2nd-order function, a calculus integration. Relates to acceleration, not speed.

 

[MidLife]

Besides the actual skill-set, some further, mental pointers:

Motorcycle roadcraft: the police rider's... by Mares, Penny

Buy Motorcycle roadcraft: the police rider's handbook New ed., 2013 by Mares, Penny, Police Foundation, Coyne, Philip (ISBN: 9780117081888) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

Pretty brave of you to recommend a book here that represents that counter-steering is an above "walking pace" phenomenon (p 140).

Thanks anyway.